[INTRO MUSIC PLAYS]
ELENA: Hello and welcome back to Hoo’s at the Writing Center season 2! I’m Elena!
KARISSA: I’m Karissa.
SARAH: I’m Sarah.
KIMBERLY: And I’m Kimberly! We want to begin by expressing our support for the Black Lives Matter movement and the fight for racial justice in this country and encourage you to support and learn more about the movement by the resources we are including in the description of this episode as well as other links. I’m sure you can also do - uh - there are many many thousands of resources out there to help you learn more about the movement and how you can help out. But, we also want to acknowledge that often simply expressing a statement of support for Black Lives Matter and anti-racism is not enough. It’s easy to say a few words and then continue business as usual without actually enacting any real changes. Now, we certainly don’t claim to be single handedly dismantling the racist structures in academic institutions with this episode, but we believe that it's important to expose those racist structures and to understand our positionality as a writing center within and as a part of them. So, in this episode we want to give some context for writing center anti-racist work and resources to shed some light on why this work is necessary. There are tons of resources out there but the two that we will be drawing from in this episode are an older piece, The Silenced Dialogue by Lisa Delpit, and a newer piece, Reading Through Racial Injustice from the International Writing Centers Association. The first topic that we want to talk about is the euphemisms for race and racism. So, diversity and inclusion are - can be - indirect ways to talk about race in academia. So, for example, even People of Color can be used as an indirect way to talk about race, and talking about, when - so when you talk about People of Color, you know, you may be explicitly talking about Black people, or you may be talking about Latinx, or Asian Americans, or Native Americans, and so forth, and it’s important to just state it rather than gooping them up into People of Color, which they are, but their individual experiences aren’t something that you can easily finite into one grouping. They may have a similar response to - or a similar experience of being dominated by upper-middle class white supremacy, or groups, or people, but their individual experiences are vastly different from each other, and there’s no way that you can, you know - and especially because Black and Native Americans have faced a tremendous amount of racism and terrible discrimination that I’m sure you’ve seen around - that people are beginning to use BIPOC, which stands for Black Indigenous People of Color, to really acknowledge that Black people and Indigenous folks have faced a buck load of history of racism um, for many many years in the U.S. What other euphemisms of race and racism are out there for you guys?
SARAH: I’ll just add on to what you were saying, I don’t have like a separate euphemism, but correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that like when people use the term, like “People of Color”, that’s also, like othering that entire group, and that’s definitely something that we wanna, um stray away from, for sure. And I think that the majority of - it’s hard as well, because I feel like the majority of people who use the term “People of Color” like, really, - it’s not their intention to other that group, but I think that’s definitely not an excuse, and that’s just been happening for years, you know, just because you don't intend to be racist, just because you don't intend to other another person, doesn’t mean that you’re not doing it, so yes, so I was just wanting to add on to what you said.
KARISSA: Yeah, going off of that as well, the need for explicitly talking about race and racism, I feel like kind of ties back to that, because it’s really hard to like, have an explicit and focused and productive conversation on those things when um, you’re grouping the experience of different people of color together and saying that, like those experiences are very similar or kind of the same, and it’s hard to get really specific and find ways to take action and be actively anti-racist when it’s just a collective experience and you’re not focusing on like, the individual and the uniqueness of each of those experiences, and how that looks, for example, for like Black people and their lives it’s gonna look very different, for Latinx people and their lives, and things like that. So I think like, just the need for focusing in, like getting rid of that generalization, and like focusing really on like the specific aspects of a person’s identity, the specific aspects of their experience, and using that to like have more explicit and more um, like upfront and productive conversations about race and racism.
ELENA: I think another contributing factor to like, how do you have discussions that are explicitly about race, but are, you know, like able to be productive, and like focusing on like, the voices that actually need to matter in that conversation, I think that the issue that comes up a lot is that as a white people, um, white people tend to like get really focused on when people are like, “okay, the language you’re using is racist”, it’s like “well, I’m not racist”, and it’s like that’s not the point, you know. And I think that that, to some extent, needs to be a conversation in academia as well, because the focus is like, we’re in a racist institution, right, so that should be what the focus is, because of course there are racist people, but when you're using language that is racist, and you’re in an institution that has, like these racist principles that it’s still using, that are kind of – kind of like, hidden, which I think is an important thing that we’re gonna talk about in this episode, like, how do you make those things visible. And so I think part of that, too, is like kind of taking a step back and being like, okay, well, when people say that the language that you’re using is racist, it’s not like a direct accusation of your character, like it’s not really about you, so I think that that is another - another aspect of maybe why this, like not-explicit language about race is used.
KIMBERLY: Yeah, those are really - yeah, I mean, and I think that’s something that is, uh, just like, I mean, learning about racism in history classes or about like, in like middle school, I mean, I’ve had - had all of them be from white teachers, and so it’s - it’s this weird - it’s very disjointing and very like, it’s - it’s interesting when, you know, white teachers talk about, explicit - they just talk about - when they talk about Black Americans, or African Americans, you know, they talk about, like slavery, and like the civil war, and like - and that was it, but they don’t ever bring in, you know, voices about it, they just say, oh by the way, this happened. Like, oh yeah, we know this happened, but like, you - you’re leaving out so many details about what has really gone on. Like, I think that, in my history classes, at least, they - they didn’t really - they touched the surface when it comes to talking about race and racism because we’re, you know, in high school, and they were like, “oh, they don’t need to know about what really goes beneath the surface,” but I - I think that there’s a lot of um, power that goes into that, especially of just like, you know, preventing people from knowing more about a certain topic, or just being very vague about - when talking about racism. I’m just looking at the notes here, uh about, too often white allyship can turn to replicating the centering of whiteness and privileging of white authors, even in discussions of racial justice, like that - that happens, unfortunately, often in conversations about race and racism is when white people start feeling defensive, or when white people start like, trying to contribute to the conversation, which of course, they can, but it - it starts becoming - like we’re redirecting the focus back to them, and it - it’s whole, this dynamic that navigate, especially in predominantly white institutions, you know, we’re constantly navigating conversations about race uh, with other white people. So uh, yeah, something to think about and, going forth.
SARAH: I was just gonna add on to what Kimberly was saying um, I just feel like um, education, especially even at an elementary school level is so important, because I feel like one of the reasons why like, racial conversations um, or conversation surrounding race, excuse me, kind of go back to white people, is because they feel uncomfortable, and they get defensive. And I don’t think that like, feeling of uncomfort and like, immediate defense and like, immediate white fragility that comes out in raci- in, I keep saying that - in conversations about race, um, like I think that immediately comes out because they are uncomfortable. So it’s like when you, um - like when you were saying, Kimberly, like when you explicitly kind of say - or, and Elena, um like, oh, you’re using - “the language that you’re using is problematic”, they take that as “oh my gosh, like I’m not racist, I don’t think that I’m racist, none of my friends are racist, I promise”, like, and like, do you know how many, like white family members, friends, people I don’t know, like, they just usually - you get larger, you get bigger, and you get louder, is what I’ve kind of like, interacted with those people. And I always have to like, stay my calm, and be like, “did I say that I thought you were racist?” You know what I mean - not like that, but like in a better way, and like, also that - that’s just a whole ‘nother level of like, you’re expecting me to be calm for you, because, you know, you’re expecting me to morph to your needs when you should be you know, listening to others, instead of them like, having to you know, be nice and like, again, like it just comes back to like, centering around whiteness and that privilege of being white, and it’s just so, gosh it irks me, but yeah I definitely just wanted to say that education from the start so kids can be comfortable talking about it, and those kids obviously eventually turn into adults. And that comfort of talking about an uncomfortable quote on quote topic, definitely benefits the entire human race *laughs*.
ELENA: That’s a super good point. Um, yes so I just think kind of going off this like discussion of specifically academic spaces where there is kind of like a silencing, um, so towards, there’s been a lot of anti-racist literature about writing centers, about education, and one of the first – the first few, not really studies, but it’s more about like her experiences working as a teacher, and – so, she...in the 1980s, this woman named Lisa Delpit, who’s also a teacher, uh – wrote this piece called “The Silenced Dialogue.” And, kind of the main point that she was making in it was that, there is this thing which exists in academic structures, which is kind of – it’s assumed to exist, but it’s not really made visible, and she calls it the academic culture of power. So I won’t go over all of the, uh, “rules of power,” but we highly recommend that you read it, and we’ll be attaching it in the description – but basically, she lays out these rules of power which are part of the culture of power. And she emphasizes making these structures, um, visible in academia. And it’s important to keep in mind that because this was towards the beginning of of anti-racist research and work in writing centers and educational institutions, um, it’s – there’s been a lot of changes, and kind of...shifts since – since she wrote this, but there’s still some important aspects of it, so...this culture of power is something that is rooted in, like, upper white middle class language, and, so, because of that, it’s something that, you know, white upper middle class students who are going into educational institutions, they already have that. But, what Delpit is talking about is students who are coming from other cultures, that are not the so-called “culture of power,” don’t come with those, like, assumed, um, and pre-taught aspects. So, it doesn’t – it makes it hard for them to participate in the culture of power. So, what she was kind of talking about is that, this culture of power can be seen in, like, what is called “Standard English,” heavy air quotes there – um, which, like, we can see in academic writing, and in like, academic literacy, and it often manifests in a racially-coded sense, in which academic writing is white-coded. To do this is to exclude people of color from the culture of power, and to tell them that they have to, like, “become white” in order to participate, so this is kind of the issue that she’s talking about. And, again, there are waves of anti-racist work, so, much like waves of feminism, so it’s important to note that Delpit is writing this as part of the beginning waves. And her call for teaching explicit, standardized academic English has since been challenged by the argument that even teaching that privileged variety of English contributes to its privileged status in the first place, so it’s kind of like – how do we...kind of dismantle that? And so, the more current arguments are calling for linguistic equality which, yeah, leans more towards dismantling the culture of power – but, in order to do that, you have to first identify that it’s there. So both arguments are emphasizing just making that power visible, and not taking it for granted as the norm.
KIMBERLY: I was just gonna say something and ask if this is how it can tie back to, you know, what we read in our 3090 class about, you know, uh, the...reading, um, articles and stories, where there is a multilingualism in it, y’know? Um, I was actually reading an article the other day titled...ugh, I can’t remember off the top of my head, which is bad – uh, it was “Race, Retention, and…” something along the lines, I will attach it in the description if you would like to read it, and I’m so sorry that I can’t remember it, but basically, uh, they had these two authors, uh, one is a – they’re both, I believe, graduate students who are trying to get their PhD or have their PhD...and one is a Black, lesbian, disabled graduate student, and the other is a Latinx graduate student, and, um, they both incorporated their stories about, uh, writing centers, as people of color and also as, like, as people who had an initial hesitation with, um, writing centers, because of the sort of dynamic the writing centers at their school had with students, like, you know, professors weaponizing writing centers, or like, you have to come in and like have a sort of, um, an understanding of all the basic grammar rules and how to use a comma and all that stuff, um – but, when I was reading it, you know, there were, the Latinx author, she incorporated, um, Spanish into the article itself, and like, I cannot read Spanish, but like I, you know, I didn’t question it. I wasn’t just like, “Oh, this is weird, why are you incorporating another language?” and all that stuff. Because I know that I have grown into like, thinking that English is like, a very dominant language, when really it’s just...you know, I think we perpetuate that, especially in the United States, we perpetuate that, without recognizing that we are – there are so many other languages out there, and also we are not the only country in the world. [Laughter] You know, other countries have languages that dominate that country but when we go to those countries, we are like, “Oh,” you know, not making an effort to learn the language. And, um, I know that academic institutions tend to, um, strive for the Standard English. And, um, it’s uh – I’m sure there have been arguments about linguistic equality, but it’s – it’s something that isn’t as prominent, I feel, in my experience, yet, to really be like a...a guiding point, or a focal point, when it comes to talking about linguistics. So, yeah, I just wanted to throw that out there, ‘cause I was just thinking about reading articles where, you know, maybe I didn’t, uh, understand the language, but I, you know, never questioned it because we are able to understand that like, you know, English doesn’t have to be like the know all, be all factor of your education. There are so much – people say this all the time, and it feels...iffy to say now, but, there’s richness in diversity, you know? There is so many cultures to appreciate, and, like, it’s very selfish of us to feel that...it’s such a difficult thing when we have to work with that kind of system in the writing center, at least, for me personally. You know, you’re just, always – and I don’t know if I’ve ever come across someone who’s written different languages…
KARISSA: Yeah, just kind of going off of that, like...and tying back into that “culture of power,” just like the expectation in a lot of universities of just the “Standard American English Essay,” and how that looks, and a lot of, just, grading patterns based on the “proper use of English,” and the correct structure of like, this esteemed form of essay, is just really...it’s something that I didn’t think about before getting a job at the writing center, and it’s now something that I see a lot of students struggling with, just because, um, it’s not always the most comfortable form of writing for everyone and it’s also like- it’s held very high on a pedestal for, I think, maybe a lot of the wrong reasons. Like Elena was touching on before, the institution is very racist and I think that this is one of the biggest things is the perpetuation of that and the fact that a lot of the time that is not taken into account on like a grading scale. Especially in writing, it’s really easy to read a paper that maybe doesn’t have the most fluid use of English or maybe it uses two different languages or the structure isn’t what’s expected out of this standard, esteemed, American English essay. I think it’s really easy to abuse that power and like point out the things that are wrong, that aren’t in line with this very hierarchical, in a lot of ways racist, institution of the way things should be. So I think, I know Elena also mentioned that some of this racism is hidden, and I think this is one really important place to look because it really opened my eyes to the way the institution, in a lot of ways, was discriminatory and just really picking apart what writing an essay in English means for a lot of different students and how that looks different for everyone and to say that there is just one, baseline this-is-how-everything -should-look, that’s one of the biggest problems. I think starting with that, even with that like hidden aspect of it and then taking a look also at the work we do at the Writing Center and how that-- How do you...how do you be a part of this institution and also say that, you know, like the Standard English American essay isn’t really a thing that needs to be achievable? So just kind of like that back and forth of finding-- or like starting those conversations in the Writing Center and just branching out continuing until like we have the institution in a conversation.
ELENA: Maybe something that relates to that is this idea of like-- how do we as a Writing Center support like multiliteracies while also acknowledging that there is this culture of power? And if we pretend that doesn’t exist, then that’s doing more harm than good I think. So I think, yeah, just being-- trying to figure out how do you kind of like not tow that line, but how do you balance that? Because I think all of us as writing consultants have a responsibility towards our clients, towards the students we work with, to be like okay they’re coming to us in the Writing Center for like this specific purpose and I think we have like a responsibility to help them, but I think it’s also like being mindful of like-- okay at what point is our like ‘help’ assimilative and at what point are we reinforcing things like the Standard American Essay and things like we can’t ignore that they exist, but kind of figuring out like how to work for the student first, I guess? Rather than the institution, while still allowing the student to like exist and I guess like succeed in that institution and like figuring out how to make that work. So that’s not really an answer [chuckle], but I guess it’s just like an issue that we as a Writing Center, I would like to think, are aware of. So…
KIMBERLY: I agree wholeheartedly about, you know, sort of the, as Karissa talked about, the sort of back and forth of like, wanting to – dismantle and like, address the Standard English but also being sort of like, as Elena said, our practices can be assimilative, you know we...there are ways that you can interpret our work as being perpetuators of the Standard English, or of perpetuating the upper middle class, white, pedagogy. And that unfortunately is true, the Writing Center is built upon [the] dominant party in our society, but that doesn’t mean that we aren’t constantly trying to address it, you know? I mean, I know that we learned in class, uh – we've referred to it as 3090, which is, a tutoring writing class that we have to take as being part of the Writing Center, and we were learning so much about ways that we can support multiliteracy, because we do – we do truly value it and want to push back against those assimilative policies which can erase a writer’s own voice. But we also have to acknowledge that there is a culture of power in the Writing Center. And it’s such a – a perpetual...it’s a consistent thing that occurs, especially when students come in and they, um, when clients come in and they have, you know, a certain audience that they have to cater their writing to, then we have to honor that, for the student. And...because we are here, first and foremost, always, for the client. But acknowledging that some of that...culture of power plays into that, into how we sort of have to navigate consultations because, you know, their audience is a certain group, and their professor has, uh, guidelines or rubrics or expectations on how their writing is.
SARAH: I don’t know about you all, but I personally get very, very, very frustrated, um, when...a client comes in and tells me that their professor asks them to come to the Writing Center for grammar help. Or for work like, on their grammar – and like, even if their professor didn’t ask them to come, like a lot of clients are like, “You know, in all” -- let’s say the rubric “you know, in every other box, I got score like ‘xxxx’ but just in grammar, it’s like all the way down.” And I just feel like professors, and just, like, like you all are saying, this academia, like “culture,” [Laughter] um, they like to just conveniently group this like...othering, or like not following that culture of power into like, “Oh no no no, but your grammar is just wrong.” So like, they would just mark down on that category, and I just – it's so frustrating, as a consultant, to be like, “Your writing is beautiful. Like, I can hear you, and I can, like, everything is so clear and concise, and like, it...there is literally nothing wrong with it;” do you know what I mean? And just because it doesn’t like, perfectly fit into this standardized American English essay, that doesn’t mean that a professor is allowed to mark it down so low on like, specifically just the grammar. And, I don’t know, I just, I get very frustrated and I...I don’t know if you all have had that experience, what you do, because I kind of get in this like, boxed position, where it’s like, well, I know that their professor’s marking them down because of...you know, it’s not like this perfect, more Standard American English essay, on the other hand, I don’t want to change their writing. And that’s not...so just, I get a little, uh, disheveled, in the cubicle, if you will. [Laughter] Or the online. [Laughter] Um...oh, goodness. Our online consulting. But yeah, I was just wondering what you guys kind of do about that. And like how you handle that situation.
ELENA: I mean, I think that like, part of that – ‘cause I’ve definitely had that experience before and it’s super frustrating – especially when you like, look at the rubric and you just see that, because it’s like their ideas are solid, their organization is solid, like...and I think that that’s kind of part of something that we talked about in 3090 a lot, was this idea of like, “higher and lower order concerns,” and by like relegating grammar to this “lower order concern,” what you’re essentially doing is you’re saying like, “Well grammar, it’s a small thing,” ‘cause it’s assumed that students already know that, right, so it’s another...I think that’s another kind of manifestation of this like culture of power thing, where it’s like, if you’re assuming that students like, know this, and therefore you’re being like, “Well this is a lower order concern,” I think that’s another instance where it’s like, doing more harm than good, because then when they come to the Writing Center and they’re like, “Well, I’ve gotten all these like...” the essay as a whole is great! But, because the professor has just been like...you know, marks them off for all the little grammar things, I think that is kind of an instance where there’s this assumption that everybody, like, knows these grammar conventions? Um, which is harmful. So I think that, what I have found is useful, is just like...making that not a lower order concern? Like that sounds kind of um, ironic I guess, but being like, okay, here’s like how...here’s how you – and not just kind of addressing it, not just marking up their paper with like, red pen, right, ‘cause that’s not helpful [Chuckle] ‘cause then you hand it back to them and they’re probably just gonna, you know, do the...replicate the same thing, on the next paper, so I think it’s just kind of...how do we like, make that accessible to students if they’re coming to us and they’re like, “My professor is targeting my paper based on grammar.” So, yeah, I think it’s kind of a slippery slope because again, you don’t wanna be...like, “This is wrong, and this is wrong,” but it’s like...here’s why this is a Standard English grammar convention, and here’s why in this context your professor marked it off, I think that could be helpful to students. But I don’t know if you guys have other thoughts or experiences of that.
KARISSA: I like what you said about the different order of concerns, because I think a lot of time I think that’s the biggest issue that I hear from students in consultations is like, “My professor assigned this or said this and didn’t explain” – like assumed everyone understood it and so then definitely having to look at like although it’s not a higher order concern for your professors like it needs to be for us in this consultation just really trying to focus on the voice despite the fact that you’re looking more intensly at grammar...um... something I always think about if that’s where the consultation is going is like, How is this going to change the voice of the paper? Like will it change anything in the paper? Like is the author, is the client, comfortable with a possible change being made? Things like that and just like checking in and making sure that they know that this is only part of the standard English American essay like it has nothing to do with their writing, it has nothing to do with their voice, their ideas, it’s just a convention that their professor is requiring and hopefully the next one won’t require it and just being like really clear and really upfront about like – I'm not correcting your paper right now, I’m just fitting it to the guidelines that your professor is requiring and we’re also like trying really hard not to lose you when doing that with this paper – but I agree with both Sarah and Elena. It’s really really sometimes frustrating and like also a very tricky situation to be in, to have to like cater to that culture of power, while also trying to make sure that clients know that shouldn’t have to be that way necessarily, I guess?
ELENA: Going off of that, like thinking about when we’re addressing things like grammar, kind of keeping in mind this idea of like – what is academic language? And how does linguistic prejudice play into that? So, a quote from the readings on racial justice source that we’ll be including which I felt was relevant is, “The teaching of writing is never a neutral endeavor; it is never devoid of political motivations or outcomes” (Racial Justice, 5). So just thinking about what situation we’re in when we’re-- we’re not exactly teaching writing because we’re also students are we are, at the same time, kind of implicated in this position of sort of authority in terms of like, we’re there to--students come to us with their papers and are like, “Hey. Help me out.” So, yeah I don’t know if you guys have any thoughts on that.
SARAH: I guess, just like kind of going off of what you’re saying just being very very – and Karissa as well, and just really everyone, this has just been incredible. [Cheerfully chuckles] Just being very very clear about the difference of like an academic writing or specifically that standard American academic essay that we were talking about before. Genuinely, I find myself pretty privilege in terms of like, education and like the um opportunities of education I’ve had and the term “standard American English essay” is fairly recent to me. It's only kind of like popped up in college or in recent years, and I think that’s very very important for everyone to learn, for sure because I mean- I genuinely cannot remember who taught me to write [nervously chuckles] but um I can tell you that I—no one throughout elementary, middle school, or even high school kind of like portrayed that terminology to me which I think is really important.
KIMBERLY: Um, there’s this quote that I saw, that I was reading, but you’ve also laid it down here in Delpit’s article where she says “They only want to go on research they’ve read that other white people have written” (Delpit, 2). Also, beneath that, which I also read was like, oh that’s a really interesting quote that, “... the white educators had the authority to establish what was to be considered “truth” regardless of the opinions of the people of color, and the latter were well aware of that fact” and that kind of plays into the culture of power of like the fourth one I believe which is, “If you are not already a participant in the culture of power, being told explicitly the rules of that culture makes acquiring power easier”, and the fifth one is, “Those with power are frequently least aware of – or least willing to acknowledge – its existence. Those with less power are often most aware of its existence” (Delpit, 5). So, it’s daunting for professors to sort of easily uh require like a standard Americanized English essay which I also didn’t really know about until college. You know, I guess I wasn’t really taught about linguistic equality or like the different Englishes or like multilingualism. I wasn’t taught that until 3090 honestly, there’s no one that explicitly talked about the ways in which linguistics can often play into racial prejudice. Uh, I know this was sort of one of our longer episodes but we felt like this was really important to talk about and we will of course, as writing center consultants, we are in a bit of position of power and privilege to be able to talk about this, but we want to be able to – and not at all call out or shame our writing center in any which way – but we want to critique the overall concept of writing centers across the US and talk about the ways in which we do anti-racist work. There are a lot of articles about anti-racist work in the writing center, but also racist work in the writing center and being, or address that...address that topic in this episode as our start of a new season. So, like we said, there will be a uh link and information in the description that has all our resources as well as a couple of organizations that you should check out, for more information on the Black Lives Matter movement and how you can help out-- we’re also including a link for the writing center blog where we’ll be discussion and annotation some of these anti-racist resources to hopefully make them more accessible and keep this conversation going in this corner of the institution. There is a lot of work to be done, but no work compares to the struggles faced by many black and African-Americans today, especially in the US. With that, be sure to stay safe, take care of one another, and this has been another episode of
EVERYONE: Hoo, Hoo’s at the Writing Center [all laugh]
KIMBERLY: Take care, we appreciate you all and we’ll see you next episode.
[OUTTRO MUSIC PLAYS]
ELENA: Hello and welcome back to Hoo’s at the Writing Center season 2! I’m Elena!
KARISSA: I’m Karissa.
SARAH: I’m Sarah.
KIMBERLY: And I’m Kimberly! We want to begin by expressing our support for the Black Lives Matter movement and the fight for racial justice in this country and encourage you to support and learn more about the movement by the resources we are including in the description of this episode as well as other links. I’m sure you can also do - uh - there are many many thousands of resources out there to help you learn more about the movement and how you can help out. But, we also want to acknowledge that often simply expressing a statement of support for Black Lives Matter and anti-racism is not enough. It’s easy to say a few words and then continue business as usual without actually enacting any real changes. Now, we certainly don’t claim to be single handedly dismantling the racist structures in academic institutions with this episode, but we believe that it's important to expose those racist structures and to understand our positionality as a writing center within and as a part of them. So, in this episode we want to give some context for writing center anti-racist work and resources to shed some light on why this work is necessary. There are tons of resources out there but the two that we will be drawing from in this episode are an older piece, The Silenced Dialogue by Lisa Delpit, and a newer piece, Reading Through Racial Injustice from the International Writing Centers Association. The first topic that we want to talk about is the euphemisms for race and racism. So, diversity and inclusion are - can be - indirect ways to talk about race in academia. So, for example, even People of Color can be used as an indirect way to talk about race, and talking about, when - so when you talk about People of Color, you know, you may be explicitly talking about Black people, or you may be talking about Latinx, or Asian Americans, or Native Americans, and so forth, and it’s important to just state it rather than gooping them up into People of Color, which they are, but their individual experiences aren’t something that you can easily finite into one grouping. They may have a similar response to - or a similar experience of being dominated by upper-middle class white supremacy, or groups, or people, but their individual experiences are vastly different from each other, and there’s no way that you can, you know - and especially because Black and Native Americans have faced a tremendous amount of racism and terrible discrimination that I’m sure you’ve seen around - that people are beginning to use BIPOC, which stands for Black Indigenous People of Color, to really acknowledge that Black people and Indigenous folks have faced a buck load of history of racism um, for many many years in the U.S. What other euphemisms of race and racism are out there for you guys?
SARAH: I’ll just add on to what you were saying, I don’t have like a separate euphemism, but correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that like when people use the term, like “People of Color”, that’s also, like othering that entire group, and that’s definitely something that we wanna, um stray away from, for sure. And I think that the majority of - it’s hard as well, because I feel like the majority of people who use the term “People of Color” like, really, - it’s not their intention to other that group, but I think that’s definitely not an excuse, and that’s just been happening for years, you know, just because you don't intend to be racist, just because you don't intend to other another person, doesn’t mean that you’re not doing it, so yes, so I was just wanting to add on to what you said.
KARISSA: Yeah, going off of that as well, the need for explicitly talking about race and racism, I feel like kind of ties back to that, because it’s really hard to like, have an explicit and focused and productive conversation on those things when um, you’re grouping the experience of different people of color together and saying that, like those experiences are very similar or kind of the same, and it’s hard to get really specific and find ways to take action and be actively anti-racist when it’s just a collective experience and you’re not focusing on like, the individual and the uniqueness of each of those experiences, and how that looks, for example, for like Black people and their lives it’s gonna look very different, for Latinx people and their lives, and things like that. So I think like, just the need for focusing in, like getting rid of that generalization, and like focusing really on like the specific aspects of a person’s identity, the specific aspects of their experience, and using that to like have more explicit and more um, like upfront and productive conversations about race and racism.
ELENA: I think another contributing factor to like, how do you have discussions that are explicitly about race, but are, you know, like able to be productive, and like focusing on like, the voices that actually need to matter in that conversation, I think that the issue that comes up a lot is that as a white people, um, white people tend to like get really focused on when people are like, “okay, the language you’re using is racist”, it’s like “well, I’m not racist”, and it’s like that’s not the point, you know. And I think that that, to some extent, needs to be a conversation in academia as well, because the focus is like, we’re in a racist institution, right, so that should be what the focus is, because of course there are racist people, but when you're using language that is racist, and you’re in an institution that has, like these racist principles that it’s still using, that are kind of – kind of like, hidden, which I think is an important thing that we’re gonna talk about in this episode, like, how do you make those things visible. And so I think part of that, too, is like kind of taking a step back and being like, okay, well, when people say that the language that you’re using is racist, it’s not like a direct accusation of your character, like it’s not really about you, so I think that that is another - another aspect of maybe why this, like not-explicit language about race is used.
KIMBERLY: Yeah, those are really - yeah, I mean, and I think that’s something that is, uh, just like, I mean, learning about racism in history classes or about like, in like middle school, I mean, I’ve had - had all of them be from white teachers, and so it’s - it’s this weird - it’s very disjointing and very like, it’s - it’s interesting when, you know, white teachers talk about, explicit - they just talk about - when they talk about Black Americans, or African Americans, you know, they talk about, like slavery, and like the civil war, and like - and that was it, but they don’t ever bring in, you know, voices about it, they just say, oh by the way, this happened. Like, oh yeah, we know this happened, but like, you - you’re leaving out so many details about what has really gone on. Like, I think that, in my history classes, at least, they - they didn’t really - they touched the surface when it comes to talking about race and racism because we’re, you know, in high school, and they were like, “oh, they don’t need to know about what really goes beneath the surface,” but I - I think that there’s a lot of um, power that goes into that, especially of just like, you know, preventing people from knowing more about a certain topic, or just being very vague about - when talking about racism. I’m just looking at the notes here, uh about, too often white allyship can turn to replicating the centering of whiteness and privileging of white authors, even in discussions of racial justice, like that - that happens, unfortunately, often in conversations about race and racism is when white people start feeling defensive, or when white people start like, trying to contribute to the conversation, which of course, they can, but it - it starts becoming - like we’re redirecting the focus back to them, and it - it’s whole, this dynamic that navigate, especially in predominantly white institutions, you know, we’re constantly navigating conversations about race uh, with other white people. So uh, yeah, something to think about and, going forth.
SARAH: I was just gonna add on to what Kimberly was saying um, I just feel like um, education, especially even at an elementary school level is so important, because I feel like one of the reasons why like, racial conversations um, or conversation surrounding race, excuse me, kind of go back to white people, is because they feel uncomfortable, and they get defensive. And I don’t think that like, feeling of uncomfort and like, immediate defense and like, immediate white fragility that comes out in raci- in, I keep saying that - in conversations about race, um, like I think that immediately comes out because they are uncomfortable. So it’s like when you, um - like when you were saying, Kimberly, like when you explicitly kind of say - or, and Elena, um like, oh, you’re using - “the language that you’re using is problematic”, they take that as “oh my gosh, like I’m not racist, I don’t think that I’m racist, none of my friends are racist, I promise”, like, and like, do you know how many, like white family members, friends, people I don’t know, like, they just usually - you get larger, you get bigger, and you get louder, is what I’ve kind of like, interacted with those people. And I always have to like, stay my calm, and be like, “did I say that I thought you were racist?” You know what I mean - not like that, but like in a better way, and like, also that - that’s just a whole ‘nother level of like, you’re expecting me to be calm for you, because, you know, you’re expecting me to morph to your needs when you should be you know, listening to others, instead of them like, having to you know, be nice and like, again, like it just comes back to like, centering around whiteness and that privilege of being white, and it’s just so, gosh it irks me, but yeah I definitely just wanted to say that education from the start so kids can be comfortable talking about it, and those kids obviously eventually turn into adults. And that comfort of talking about an uncomfortable quote on quote topic, definitely benefits the entire human race *laughs*.
ELENA: That’s a super good point. Um, yes so I just think kind of going off this like discussion of specifically academic spaces where there is kind of like a silencing, um, so towards, there’s been a lot of anti-racist literature about writing centers, about education, and one of the first – the first few, not really studies, but it’s more about like her experiences working as a teacher, and – so, she...in the 1980s, this woman named Lisa Delpit, who’s also a teacher, uh – wrote this piece called “The Silenced Dialogue.” And, kind of the main point that she was making in it was that, there is this thing which exists in academic structures, which is kind of – it’s assumed to exist, but it’s not really made visible, and she calls it the academic culture of power. So I won’t go over all of the, uh, “rules of power,” but we highly recommend that you read it, and we’ll be attaching it in the description – but basically, she lays out these rules of power which are part of the culture of power. And she emphasizes making these structures, um, visible in academia. And it’s important to keep in mind that because this was towards the beginning of of anti-racist research and work in writing centers and educational institutions, um, it’s – there’s been a lot of changes, and kind of...shifts since – since she wrote this, but there’s still some important aspects of it, so...this culture of power is something that is rooted in, like, upper white middle class language, and, so, because of that, it’s something that, you know, white upper middle class students who are going into educational institutions, they already have that. But, what Delpit is talking about is students who are coming from other cultures, that are not the so-called “culture of power,” don’t come with those, like, assumed, um, and pre-taught aspects. So, it doesn’t – it makes it hard for them to participate in the culture of power. So, what she was kind of talking about is that, this culture of power can be seen in, like, what is called “Standard English,” heavy air quotes there – um, which, like, we can see in academic writing, and in like, academic literacy, and it often manifests in a racially-coded sense, in which academic writing is white-coded. To do this is to exclude people of color from the culture of power, and to tell them that they have to, like, “become white” in order to participate, so this is kind of the issue that she’s talking about. And, again, there are waves of anti-racist work, so, much like waves of feminism, so it’s important to note that Delpit is writing this as part of the beginning waves. And her call for teaching explicit, standardized academic English has since been challenged by the argument that even teaching that privileged variety of English contributes to its privileged status in the first place, so it’s kind of like – how do we...kind of dismantle that? And so, the more current arguments are calling for linguistic equality which, yeah, leans more towards dismantling the culture of power – but, in order to do that, you have to first identify that it’s there. So both arguments are emphasizing just making that power visible, and not taking it for granted as the norm.
KIMBERLY: I was just gonna say something and ask if this is how it can tie back to, you know, what we read in our 3090 class about, you know, uh, the...reading, um, articles and stories, where there is a multilingualism in it, y’know? Um, I was actually reading an article the other day titled...ugh, I can’t remember off the top of my head, which is bad – uh, it was “Race, Retention, and…” something along the lines, I will attach it in the description if you would like to read it, and I’m so sorry that I can’t remember it, but basically, uh, they had these two authors, uh, one is a – they’re both, I believe, graduate students who are trying to get their PhD or have their PhD...and one is a Black, lesbian, disabled graduate student, and the other is a Latinx graduate student, and, um, they both incorporated their stories about, uh, writing centers, as people of color and also as, like, as people who had an initial hesitation with, um, writing centers, because of the sort of dynamic the writing centers at their school had with students, like, you know, professors weaponizing writing centers, or like, you have to come in and like have a sort of, um, an understanding of all the basic grammar rules and how to use a comma and all that stuff, um – but, when I was reading it, you know, there were, the Latinx author, she incorporated, um, Spanish into the article itself, and like, I cannot read Spanish, but like I, you know, I didn’t question it. I wasn’t just like, “Oh, this is weird, why are you incorporating another language?” and all that stuff. Because I know that I have grown into like, thinking that English is like, a very dominant language, when really it’s just...you know, I think we perpetuate that, especially in the United States, we perpetuate that, without recognizing that we are – there are so many other languages out there, and also we are not the only country in the world. [Laughter] You know, other countries have languages that dominate that country but when we go to those countries, we are like, “Oh,” you know, not making an effort to learn the language. And, um, I know that academic institutions tend to, um, strive for the Standard English. And, um, it’s uh – I’m sure there have been arguments about linguistic equality, but it’s – it’s something that isn’t as prominent, I feel, in my experience, yet, to really be like a...a guiding point, or a focal point, when it comes to talking about linguistics. So, yeah, I just wanted to throw that out there, ‘cause I was just thinking about reading articles where, you know, maybe I didn’t, uh, understand the language, but I, you know, never questioned it because we are able to understand that like, you know, English doesn’t have to be like the know all, be all factor of your education. There are so much – people say this all the time, and it feels...iffy to say now, but, there’s richness in diversity, you know? There is so many cultures to appreciate, and, like, it’s very selfish of us to feel that...it’s such a difficult thing when we have to work with that kind of system in the writing center, at least, for me personally. You know, you’re just, always – and I don’t know if I’ve ever come across someone who’s written different languages…
KARISSA: Yeah, just kind of going off of that, like...and tying back into that “culture of power,” just like the expectation in a lot of universities of just the “Standard American English Essay,” and how that looks, and a lot of, just, grading patterns based on the “proper use of English,” and the correct structure of like, this esteemed form of essay, is just really...it’s something that I didn’t think about before getting a job at the writing center, and it’s now something that I see a lot of students struggling with, just because, um, it’s not always the most comfortable form of writing for everyone and it’s also like- it’s held very high on a pedestal for, I think, maybe a lot of the wrong reasons. Like Elena was touching on before, the institution is very racist and I think that this is one of the biggest things is the perpetuation of that and the fact that a lot of the time that is not taken into account on like a grading scale. Especially in writing, it’s really easy to read a paper that maybe doesn’t have the most fluid use of English or maybe it uses two different languages or the structure isn’t what’s expected out of this standard, esteemed, American English essay. I think it’s really easy to abuse that power and like point out the things that are wrong, that aren’t in line with this very hierarchical, in a lot of ways racist, institution of the way things should be. So I think, I know Elena also mentioned that some of this racism is hidden, and I think this is one really important place to look because it really opened my eyes to the way the institution, in a lot of ways, was discriminatory and just really picking apart what writing an essay in English means for a lot of different students and how that looks different for everyone and to say that there is just one, baseline this-is-how-everything -should-look, that’s one of the biggest problems. I think starting with that, even with that like hidden aspect of it and then taking a look also at the work we do at the Writing Center and how that-- How do you...how do you be a part of this institution and also say that, you know, like the Standard English American essay isn’t really a thing that needs to be achievable? So just kind of like that back and forth of finding-- or like starting those conversations in the Writing Center and just branching out continuing until like we have the institution in a conversation.
ELENA: Maybe something that relates to that is this idea of like-- how do we as a Writing Center support like multiliteracies while also acknowledging that there is this culture of power? And if we pretend that doesn’t exist, then that’s doing more harm than good I think. So I think, yeah, just being-- trying to figure out how do you kind of like not tow that line, but how do you balance that? Because I think all of us as writing consultants have a responsibility towards our clients, towards the students we work with, to be like okay they’re coming to us in the Writing Center for like this specific purpose and I think we have like a responsibility to help them, but I think it’s also like being mindful of like-- okay at what point is our like ‘help’ assimilative and at what point are we reinforcing things like the Standard American Essay and things like we can’t ignore that they exist, but kind of figuring out like how to work for the student first, I guess? Rather than the institution, while still allowing the student to like exist and I guess like succeed in that institution and like figuring out how to make that work. So that’s not really an answer [chuckle], but I guess it’s just like an issue that we as a Writing Center, I would like to think, are aware of. So…
KIMBERLY: I agree wholeheartedly about, you know, sort of the, as Karissa talked about, the sort of back and forth of like, wanting to – dismantle and like, address the Standard English but also being sort of like, as Elena said, our practices can be assimilative, you know we...there are ways that you can interpret our work as being perpetuators of the Standard English, or of perpetuating the upper middle class, white, pedagogy. And that unfortunately is true, the Writing Center is built upon [the] dominant party in our society, but that doesn’t mean that we aren’t constantly trying to address it, you know? I mean, I know that we learned in class, uh – we've referred to it as 3090, which is, a tutoring writing class that we have to take as being part of the Writing Center, and we were learning so much about ways that we can support multiliteracy, because we do – we do truly value it and want to push back against those assimilative policies which can erase a writer’s own voice. But we also have to acknowledge that there is a culture of power in the Writing Center. And it’s such a – a perpetual...it’s a consistent thing that occurs, especially when students come in and they, um, when clients come in and they have, you know, a certain audience that they have to cater their writing to, then we have to honor that, for the student. And...because we are here, first and foremost, always, for the client. But acknowledging that some of that...culture of power plays into that, into how we sort of have to navigate consultations because, you know, their audience is a certain group, and their professor has, uh, guidelines or rubrics or expectations on how their writing is.
SARAH: I don’t know about you all, but I personally get very, very, very frustrated, um, when...a client comes in and tells me that their professor asks them to come to the Writing Center for grammar help. Or for work like, on their grammar – and like, even if their professor didn’t ask them to come, like a lot of clients are like, “You know, in all” -- let’s say the rubric “you know, in every other box, I got score like ‘xxxx’ but just in grammar, it’s like all the way down.” And I just feel like professors, and just, like, like you all are saying, this academia, like “culture,” [Laughter] um, they like to just conveniently group this like...othering, or like not following that culture of power into like, “Oh no no no, but your grammar is just wrong.” So like, they would just mark down on that category, and I just – it's so frustrating, as a consultant, to be like, “Your writing is beautiful. Like, I can hear you, and I can, like, everything is so clear and concise, and like, it...there is literally nothing wrong with it;” do you know what I mean? And just because it doesn’t like, perfectly fit into this standardized American English essay, that doesn’t mean that a professor is allowed to mark it down so low on like, specifically just the grammar. And, I don’t know, I just, I get very frustrated and I...I don’t know if you all have had that experience, what you do, because I kind of get in this like, boxed position, where it’s like, well, I know that their professor’s marking them down because of...you know, it’s not like this perfect, more Standard American English essay, on the other hand, I don’t want to change their writing. And that’s not...so just, I get a little, uh, disheveled, in the cubicle, if you will. [Laughter] Or the online. [Laughter] Um...oh, goodness. Our online consulting. But yeah, I was just wondering what you guys kind of do about that. And like how you handle that situation.
ELENA: I mean, I think that like, part of that – ‘cause I’ve definitely had that experience before and it’s super frustrating – especially when you like, look at the rubric and you just see that, because it’s like their ideas are solid, their organization is solid, like...and I think that that’s kind of part of something that we talked about in 3090 a lot, was this idea of like, “higher and lower order concerns,” and by like relegating grammar to this “lower order concern,” what you’re essentially doing is you’re saying like, “Well grammar, it’s a small thing,” ‘cause it’s assumed that students already know that, right, so it’s another...I think that’s another kind of manifestation of this like culture of power thing, where it’s like, if you’re assuming that students like, know this, and therefore you’re being like, “Well this is a lower order concern,” I think that’s another instance where it’s like, doing more harm than good, because then when they come to the Writing Center and they’re like, “Well, I’ve gotten all these like...” the essay as a whole is great! But, because the professor has just been like...you know, marks them off for all the little grammar things, I think that is kind of an instance where there’s this assumption that everybody, like, knows these grammar conventions? Um, which is harmful. So I think that, what I have found is useful, is just like...making that not a lower order concern? Like that sounds kind of um, ironic I guess, but being like, okay, here’s like how...here’s how you – and not just kind of addressing it, not just marking up their paper with like, red pen, right, ‘cause that’s not helpful [Chuckle] ‘cause then you hand it back to them and they’re probably just gonna, you know, do the...replicate the same thing, on the next paper, so I think it’s just kind of...how do we like, make that accessible to students if they’re coming to us and they’re like, “My professor is targeting my paper based on grammar.” So, yeah, I think it’s kind of a slippery slope because again, you don’t wanna be...like, “This is wrong, and this is wrong,” but it’s like...here’s why this is a Standard English grammar convention, and here’s why in this context your professor marked it off, I think that could be helpful to students. But I don’t know if you guys have other thoughts or experiences of that.
KARISSA: I like what you said about the different order of concerns, because I think a lot of time I think that’s the biggest issue that I hear from students in consultations is like, “My professor assigned this or said this and didn’t explain” – like assumed everyone understood it and so then definitely having to look at like although it’s not a higher order concern for your professors like it needs to be for us in this consultation just really trying to focus on the voice despite the fact that you’re looking more intensly at grammar...um... something I always think about if that’s where the consultation is going is like, How is this going to change the voice of the paper? Like will it change anything in the paper? Like is the author, is the client, comfortable with a possible change being made? Things like that and just like checking in and making sure that they know that this is only part of the standard English American essay like it has nothing to do with their writing, it has nothing to do with their voice, their ideas, it’s just a convention that their professor is requiring and hopefully the next one won’t require it and just being like really clear and really upfront about like – I'm not correcting your paper right now, I’m just fitting it to the guidelines that your professor is requiring and we’re also like trying really hard not to lose you when doing that with this paper – but I agree with both Sarah and Elena. It’s really really sometimes frustrating and like also a very tricky situation to be in, to have to like cater to that culture of power, while also trying to make sure that clients know that shouldn’t have to be that way necessarily, I guess?
ELENA: Going off of that, like thinking about when we’re addressing things like grammar, kind of keeping in mind this idea of like – what is academic language? And how does linguistic prejudice play into that? So, a quote from the readings on racial justice source that we’ll be including which I felt was relevant is, “The teaching of writing is never a neutral endeavor; it is never devoid of political motivations or outcomes” (Racial Justice, 5). So just thinking about what situation we’re in when we’re-- we’re not exactly teaching writing because we’re also students are we are, at the same time, kind of implicated in this position of sort of authority in terms of like, we’re there to--students come to us with their papers and are like, “Hey. Help me out.” So, yeah I don’t know if you guys have any thoughts on that.
SARAH: I guess, just like kind of going off of what you’re saying just being very very – and Karissa as well, and just really everyone, this has just been incredible. [Cheerfully chuckles] Just being very very clear about the difference of like an academic writing or specifically that standard American academic essay that we were talking about before. Genuinely, I find myself pretty privilege in terms of like, education and like the um opportunities of education I’ve had and the term “standard American English essay” is fairly recent to me. It's only kind of like popped up in college or in recent years, and I think that’s very very important for everyone to learn, for sure because I mean- I genuinely cannot remember who taught me to write [nervously chuckles] but um I can tell you that I—no one throughout elementary, middle school, or even high school kind of like portrayed that terminology to me which I think is really important.
KIMBERLY: Um, there’s this quote that I saw, that I was reading, but you’ve also laid it down here in Delpit’s article where she says “They only want to go on research they’ve read that other white people have written” (Delpit, 2). Also, beneath that, which I also read was like, oh that’s a really interesting quote that, “... the white educators had the authority to establish what was to be considered “truth” regardless of the opinions of the people of color, and the latter were well aware of that fact” and that kind of plays into the culture of power of like the fourth one I believe which is, “If you are not already a participant in the culture of power, being told explicitly the rules of that culture makes acquiring power easier”, and the fifth one is, “Those with power are frequently least aware of – or least willing to acknowledge – its existence. Those with less power are often most aware of its existence” (Delpit, 5). So, it’s daunting for professors to sort of easily uh require like a standard Americanized English essay which I also didn’t really know about until college. You know, I guess I wasn’t really taught about linguistic equality or like the different Englishes or like multilingualism. I wasn’t taught that until 3090 honestly, there’s no one that explicitly talked about the ways in which linguistics can often play into racial prejudice. Uh, I know this was sort of one of our longer episodes but we felt like this was really important to talk about and we will of course, as writing center consultants, we are in a bit of position of power and privilege to be able to talk about this, but we want to be able to – and not at all call out or shame our writing center in any which way – but we want to critique the overall concept of writing centers across the US and talk about the ways in which we do anti-racist work. There are a lot of articles about anti-racist work in the writing center, but also racist work in the writing center and being, or address that...address that topic in this episode as our start of a new season. So, like we said, there will be a uh link and information in the description that has all our resources as well as a couple of organizations that you should check out, for more information on the Black Lives Matter movement and how you can help out-- we’re also including a link for the writing center blog where we’ll be discussion and annotation some of these anti-racist resources to hopefully make them more accessible and keep this conversation going in this corner of the institution. There is a lot of work to be done, but no work compares to the struggles faced by many black and African-Americans today, especially in the US. With that, be sure to stay safe, take care of one another, and this has been another episode of
EVERYONE: Hoo, Hoo’s at the Writing Center [all laugh]
KIMBERLY: Take care, we appreciate you all and we’ll see you next episode.
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