[INTRO MUSIC PLAYS]
ELENA: Hello and welcome back to Hoo’s at the Writing Center! I’m Elena,
KARISSA: I’m Karissa,
SARAH: I’m Sarah,
KIMBERLY: And I’m Kimberly!
ELENA: We have a lot of really amazing things happening this episode, so bear with us! Before we begin our discussion with our very special guest, we want to announce that we have established our new podcast team.
KARISSA: Please give a warm and virtual applause for Eleanor Golden, Maddy Corteway, Sabrina Klindworth, and Ali Shaw!
KIMBERLY: While our hearts are ridden with sadness with the eventual departure of Karissa, Elena, and Sarah – yeah, big sad face, everyone – we could not be more excited about our new members and what’s to come next year (and hopefully the year after)! And more so, we know, or at least I do (as Kimberly, speaking out of turn, writing up this transcript), that this trio of graduates will be dragged back to the Writing Center at some point or another, so fear not!
SARAH: So, without further ado, let us introduce to you our team!
SABRINA: Hi, I’m Sabrina, and I use she/her pronouns. I’ve been working for the writing center for two years, and I’m currently a third-year at Seattle University. I’m double-majoring in Humanities for Teaching and English. My area of interest on the podcast is more of a background one, as I’ll be helping write episode transcripts, and create for our social media presence. I’m not a big podcast listener myself, however, I do love a good book, um, so I can always recommend something by Toni Morrison – I will be writing a blog post about the books I recommend that I’ve read by her – um, as well as anything by Sarah J. Maas, who is an incredible fantasy romance writer.
MADDY: Hi everyone, my name is Maddy and I use she/her pronouns, and I’m a second-year at SU, majoring in Psychology and Criminal Justice, and I’ve worked in the writing center for almost a year now. And my overall interest in the podcast is just kind of a general interest; I’m not quite sure, um, what that would look like yet, but I’m just excited to be a part of the team. And my favorite podcast – besides this one, of course – is, um, Revisionist History by Malcolm Gladwell. Uh, it’s just a good, like, podcast, I mean, it has to do more with like psychology and kind of, like, unpacking like, historical events, or like, interesting people...um, but, yeah, I’d recommend Revisionist History, and I’m looking forward to being a part of the podcast team!
ALI: Hey everybody, my name is Ali Shaw, I use she/they pronouns, I am a junior, graduating class of ‘22...um, and I am a Psychology and Sociology double major. Um, I’ve worked at the writing center for two years, now? I think? I think this is my second year? Um, and it is the best job ever, um, but outside of the writing center I am really interested in like, art and neuropsychology and true crime, and I really love to read, um, so yeah, whole bunch of different things, um, and right now, my favorite podcast I have been listening to obsessively is the TryPod from the Try Guys, um, it is really, really funny and silly, um, and it gives me a good break throughout the day, uh...to listen to while I walk, or while I’m, like, watering my plants, um...but yeah! I’m super excited to be joining the podcast team, and can’t wait to make more for you soon!
ELEANOR: My name’s Eleanor, I use she/her pronouns, and I’m a second-year creative writing major. This is my first year working at the writing center, so I’m really excited to get the chance to work on the podcast some as well. Something I’m interested in with the podcast is learning what goes into crafting and editing an episode. My favorite podcast is probably Song Exploder or Pod Save America. Thank you!
SARAH: Weren’t those just the loveliest voices you’ve ever heard? Give them some love on our social media because they deserve it!
KARISSA: Now, we move on to our episode with our very special guest, new member, colleague, friend, and just a bundle of joy, Ali Shaw! Yaaay! [claps, woots] Ali Shaw will be speaking with us today about ADHD and Neurodivergence and what the two means for them as both a student and a writer. Welcome Ali and thank you for joining us today!
ALI: Thanks for having me, I’m super excited!
KARISSA: Okay!
EVERYONE: [Laughter]
KARISSA: [referring to the transcript] It says ‘Eventual small talk’...but, as we talked about before, we’re, we’re struggling with that, so...
ALI: I know, I’m like, I don’t, yeah, we don’t know how to socialize anymore, but... [laughter] We’re doin’ our best, we’re out here.
KARISSA: Exactly. Okay, so yeah, just starting with the first question, for those who may not know, what is ADHD, and then what is “neurodivergence”?
ALI: Yeah, yeah. So, um...ADHD stands for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, um, and you probably have heard that before, when talked about like kids; it’s a pretty common diagnosis for young folks. And then neurodivergence can be defined in a whole bunch of different ways, but it’s basically, uh, like the deviation from neurotypicality. So, um, a neurotypical brain is a brain that functions like, in a quote unquote kind of “normal” way, even though, uh, that doesn’t necessarily technically exist, ‘cause we’re all really different, but, um...neurodivergence is like, uh, social, or behavioral, or intellectual differences, um, that set you apart from the majority of the population.
SARAH: Wonderful, thank you so much for the clarification; I know I always appreciate just kind of like, definitions of things I may or may not know about, just so we can be on the same page, um...
ALI: Sure!
SARAH: But, how common is it for people to be diagnosed with ADHD or to be neurodivergent?
ALI: Mmm...well, so I don’t have an exact stat for you, but, um, but...as far as ADHD and neurodivergence goes, I mean, neurodivergence is again, kind of like I said, the whole idea of “normal” that we have, um...is very much like, socially-constructed, um, and from like a psychology or a behavioral and neurological standpoint, that is, like...divergence is more common than kind of, normalcy. Um, we all have a lot of quirks about ourselves that may or may not be diagnosable, or, like, disruptive, but, um...yeah. So, I would say it’s much more common than you would think, um...yeah.
ELENA: Okay, so – thank you for that, and we wanted to ask, uh, as much as you’re comfortable talking about, what has ADHD or being neurodivergent meant for you as a student, um, and also as a writer? And, how are the two, uh, student and writer, in conversation with each other in your life, and how do you navigate them?
ALI: Yeah, yeah! So, um, my ADHD diagnosis is fairly recent, um, I was diagnosed officially in December of this past year, in 2020, um, and I started – I mean, but, like the diagnosis has come after struggling with ADHD symptoms my entire life and just not necessarily recognizing them as ADHD symptoms. Um, I initially started looking into a diagnosis and looking more into what ADHD looks like, um, especially in folks who were raised and socialized as women. Um, yeah, so I started looking into that after having a conversation with a professor, who I love, and we were, we were actually on a walk and I was, she was talking about her experience with ADHD and I just kept saying like “Haha that’s so relatable, that’s so funny, like wow that sounds a lot like me.” And I think after the, I think after the third or fourth time, she uh, she finally was like “So have you like ever thought about getting tested?” Um, and I really hadn’t, it was something that was really surprising to hear. Um, because I always associated ADHD with like really hyperactive little boys that were in my classes in elementary school or who I nannied. Um, I didn’t think that ADHD was anything other than like a lot of like, extra energy, like just really intense hyperactivity, um, and it turns out it’s like, it’s just infinitely more than that. Um, and I’ve done a lot of research, I’ve fallen down many a rabbit hole trying to figure out what all this means. Um, but the, the symptoms that I notice the most in myself, um, are the, the attention deficit side of things. So there’s, there is three primary types of, um, ADHD: there is the primarily hyperactive, primarily inattentive, and then combined. So I’m definitely on the primarily inattentive side of things, um which means that I really struggle with sustaining focus. Um, and that can look, that can look a bunch of different ways. It can look like, I really have a hard time like getting things done on time because I will, either like, well so, it’s kinda, the idea of like primarily inattentive, um is kind of a misnomer because it’s actually like I have a hard time allocating focus in appropriate manner. Like I’ll either hyperfocus or over-focus on something that should not be prioritized and that doesn’t really need a lot of attention. Like, say, so I own a lot of houseplants and sometimes I, my brain is like “You know what sounds wayyy more fun than sitting down and taking notes in your zoom class, uh, watering all of your plants, and then falling down a research rabbit hole of finding out what kinds of plants there are that you don’t have or what species of plant you have sitting in front of you.” And I’ll, I’ll direct my focus in a really extreme way, um, or I’ll have no focus at all. And so sometimes that can look like, I am constantly late, I have a very hard time showing up on time to things, or I’m really really early because I like over-prepare. Um, I also like really lose track of things super easily so. Um, like when I was in high school it would drive my mom nuts, because every single morning before I left for school I would be like “Where are my car keys? I can not find them anyway, they are not in the house, I don’t have my car keys” and it would be extremely dramatic. Um, and she was like “Wha? What do you mean? Like, where are they?” And that’s, that’s a part of, um, something, like, called object permanence which is something that ADHD, folks with ADHD have a really hard time with. Like I’ll put something down somewhere and then walk away from it and my brain will not have allocated enough attention to that item when I set it down to remember where I put it. And so it just disappears in my brain, and I’ll be like “Oh, I’ve never seen car keys before, what do you mean?” but then I panic when I need them because I have literally no idea where I put them down. So it can look a whole bunch of different ways, I like, I started um, when I was starting the diagnosis progress, um it’s, it’s fairly complex because they really want to make sure they’re not misdiagnosing folks, um, especially since medication for ADHD are, they are stimulants, um, and so those are pretty heavily regulated by the FDA. So when I was going through the diagnosis process, um, I was talking extensively with my partner because she spends the most amount of time with me. Um, and she would, she would notice like, we were, we were living together during the beginning of the pandemic, and she would be like “Hey can you please, like can you take out the trash today?” um, in the morning, and then I like, by the end of the afternoon she would be like “Wha? Can you take out the trash?” and I would be like “OH MY GOD” like I, It's like I had never even heard those words before like, l would just completely forget by getting super distracted by something else. So, it’s just like, um, there’s smaller things, sometimes and then there’s other times where it’s like really big things where I get... I get really overwhelmed and panicked when I know that there’s something big and important that I need to allocate a lot of attention to, um, and it becomes this like really big monster in my brain that I can’t even... I can’t even start it because perfectionism and ADHD go really hand-in-hand. Um, so I’m so afraid of failing that I don’t want to start. Um, and that’s definitely become more obvious in college because in high school, I think that I’ve talked to many folks who have had this experience like I.. I was lucky enough to do well in school and feel really comfortable in school. Um, so I didn’t really have to put that much effort in because I liked my teachers and they knew me and we got along really well. Um, and so it was fine if I missed an assignment here and there or if I got things in late, but now, now as far as being in college, it’s... It’s definitely become more challenging. So, I know that was a lot of information [Laughs] And there.. And I could talk for—There's... There’s so much that I like... There's so much as far as ADHD goes, like there’s people who devote their entire YouTube and TikTok channels to this stuff, and honestly, that’s been... That’s been a really great resource for me, um, not as a tool for diagnosis because I think that should be... That... That should be like stated in this episode. It’s like I’m not—I can only speak to my experience and if things sound familiar like that’s like a genuine, um, phenomena called like, called The Med-Student Effect, where like if you’re in classes then you’re learning about these things, suddenly it feels like oh wait that sounds like me, that sounds like someone I know. You start relating it to people in your spheres. Um, so yea I’m not, definitely not providing this as a tool for diagnosis, but um, but yea it’s part of my experience.
SARAH: And thank you so much for sharing that experience. Um, I know that we kinda asked about how, um ADHD, what that looks like and what that means to you as a student, but we were also wondering kinda how that looks like as a, as a writer specifically and maybe how are the two, like being a student and being a writer, kinda in conversation with one another. Cause I’m hearing a lot of like um, being overwhelmed and like perfectionism, or just like being very like easily distracted and obviously all those things come into play, um with both being a writer and being a student.
ALI: Yea, yea, yea um I think that, um, yea. So something about, um, my experience with, uh, attention challenges are that, hyperfocus which is kinda the term used for like really, just totally being in the zone with something, um. That happens when something is challenging, it’s really creative, it’s new or it’s like there’s really intense pressure sometimes, like it’s, it can - I will like dive into something really really intensely, and like won’t even, like when I’m in a state of really intense hyperfocus like six to seven hours could go by and I wouldn’t even realize it, time totally melts away. I don’t like, have to eat or like go to the bathroom, like I’m just so absorbed in this task, and I don’t do a great job of regulating attention towards other things like getting up and moving my body, or like taking care of myself. Um and so that happens a lot when I’m writing, um. But on the other hand when there’s assignments that I’m not so interested or not so creative, um, those can be really hard because, it uh - I’ve tried to describe it, um as it’s, it’s just like staring at a brick wall and knowing that you’re supposed to do something with it and knowing that the task is really tall and really overwhelming, even though like logically it is more manageable than sometimes my brain feels like it is. And so I just, I honestly have a really hard time just starting and so often times that looks like, saving an assignment until the night before it’s due, um not because I didn’t have time to do other things but because the only way to make the task interesting is by making it associated with panic, and being like oh my gosh well now I have to get this done by midnight and it’s 9:30 so here we go, it’s a race against the clock and that’s a way to trick myself into being interested in it, which makes it more do-able. Um, but that also goes hand-in-hand with creating a lot of anxiety, and something that’s really common with ADHD is anxiety and depression, uh because it can be really challenging to feel like—and, and yeah in my experience like it’s like I can only do things when I’m really, like when I’m so stressed out that I feel like I have to.
Um, so that’s really hard, and another part of ADHD, kind of like what I was talking about with the, um, like with like forgetting to do tasks or being late, it’s like the—the issues are with executive functioning. So, it’s really hard to like manage time and emotionally process correctly, and I have a really hard time with working memory, which is that like remembering to do things, um, so that also leads to just a lot of frustration because even though I know I’m not a bad writer and I know that I love to write, I feel like I can’t sometimes, especially since like—so I’m a psychology and sociology double major and so that’s a lot of work and that’s a lot of writing, and so when there’s things that I’m not so interested in that I have to write about, I’m just like “ugh!” Like, I know I’m not stupid, but I feel stupid because I can’t start this. Um, and I think that one of the biggest things that’s helped with that is being able to just like reach out to other people, and even to say like—my best friend lives with me and even just to say like “hey, can you just like sit in the same room with me while I try to finish this?” because I need someone to be in the room with me to just like have another body present to say like “Look, you can do this. It’s manageable. It’s not as big as the abstract monster in your head makes it seem.” And also talking to colleagues, talking to other students, being at the writing center has totally helped because it’s also—it's really given me insight into the fact that a) what I’ve experienced my whole life and thought was just like me not being like motivated or dedicated enough is not unique, like a lot of people have that narrative in their minds about themselves as writers and as students, and that’s not always the case. There’s a lot of factors that making writing challenging, um, and make school challenging, so I would say reaching out to community has helped me navigate that. But it is—yeah, it can be hard.
KIMBERLY: Thank you, Ali, for sharing that with us, and we know that you’ve already touched on a little bit about the kinds of challenges you’ve faced, but we also want to give you the opportunity to talk about the victories and highlight the good moments. So, of course, however you feel comfortable with that kind of question, but we’d love to also bring light into this conversation.
ALI: Yeah, for sure, that’s a cute question. Um, yeah so when I was first talking to my mom about all of this—she’s, I mean I love her, she’s a peach, but she was like—I was talking about like “oh, god” just trying to piece things together and asking her lots of questions about like “well, what did you notice?” and “how was I as a kid?” and all of these questions, and something that kept coming up consistently was—she was like “yeah, this is a really hard thing that you’re kind of like learning more about, but these are also kind of like your superpowers. Like, you do like totally zone in on things and you can be really intensely focused and make amazing things because of that.” And a part of ADHD that I don’t know if I’ve totally touched on is—additionally with, kind of hand in hand with these like attention issues and more like stereotypical symptoms like having a lot of energy, needing to fidget, not being able to focus—there's also a really complex interaction with emotions and the ability to emotionally regulate. Um, and like ever since I was little my mom has always said like, “you feel things really big.” Like, my feelings are happening to me and to everyone around me, like it is, like, we are in it. Um, and so my mom’s been really kind as far as being like “yeah, like, you do feel things so intensely and that’s such a, like, that’s such an incredible thing because you, like, that means you love really intensely, and you’re really excited really intensely.” And that can mean that I get really, like, angry and self-critical sometimes, but it also, I think makes me a really animated and excited person. So, yeah-- and I also feel like ADHD—before I had a name for it, um, it made me really like empathic to other people and I feel like I have a certain level of compassion because, though I have always really enjoyed school, I also understand what it’s like to look at something and just feel completely defeated by it. And so, especially in my job as a writing consultant, I love working with other students and I also think that I have the ability to, like, say to someone like “I get it. I understand what it’s like to just feel completely overwhelmed and like there’s nowhere to go with something,” and that’s a really tough thing to sit with, especially when there’s so many expectations of, like, how we’re supposed to behave and what we’re supposed to do, and all the things we’re supposed to accomplish in these like idealized productivity goals. It’s just not attainable for a lot of us, and so, it’s always my intention to go into a consolation and be able to, like, really show up as a human and not someone who’s there to pass any judgement.
And I also, like, I mean, I can tell when I’m having an intense ADHD day when I’ll be talking to someone and my ideas are just like pinging all around and it’s like “whoa, what that was totally a non sequitur, like, we went from talking about our days to you talking about like who knows what, like, some random fact.” Of course, now that I'm trying to talk to you about it, I’m like “what random facts? I don’t know any.” [Laughs]. But I have all these ideas, and I have all these thoughts and I think that helps me think really creatively, which can be overwhelming sometimes when I need to just like really focus on the task at hand, but yeah, it also helps me do what I love to do, which like create and interact with people. So yeah, it’s definitely not all bad, um, and I know that sometimes labels and like finding—or like being diagnosed with something or what have you can feel really limiting to some folks and I definitely won’t say that getting a diagnosis is the key for everyone, but it’s really helped me find community and other people who understand, because when I was younger, especially like—I know I’ve talked a lot about the attentive piece, but the hyper activity is definitely part of my experience, and like I was in my first-grade classrooms and would pick apart pink pearl erasers with, like, my hands and they would turn into just like little crumbs while I was like playing with them. And that was like—my teacher was like “hey, those are classroom materials. You’re ruining them. What’s up kid?” and of course, like, they didn’t know, and ADHD goes really underdiagnosed in girls because we’re not as rowdy all the time as younger boys are because we’re socialized to be really quiet and small, so it can be hard to identify symptoms of ADHD in young girls.
Anyway, being able in my now 20s to be able to look back at that kid and be like “oh! You were like totally, like, nothing was wrong with you, your brain just works different and that’s okay, and that’s gonna end up being a really cool thing later,” has given me a lot of space to process and kind of like take care of that child that’s still like—that version of me still exists within the person that I am today, and so it’s been really helpful to be able to process out these things as a more emotionally nuanced and literate person [laughs] than my six year old self was, obviously. So, yeah.
SARAH: Alrighty, we just have one more question for you today. We were just wondering what is something you would like to tell the audience, or in other words, what would you like our listeners to take away most form this episode, or just in general?
ALI: Hmm, um, I would say that like—I don’t know; ADHD and neurodivergence, and I know like there’s so much more to neurodivergence that I could talk about, and a lot of those experiences are not mine, so I will leave that sharing to folks who do fit other categories than I do, but I would just say that like ADHD looks really different than the description that we’ve all been sold for a long time because I think that it’s been depicted as a really specific type of person that has ADHD like I said, like, the young kid who’s bouncing off the walls or throwing stuff in the classroom and just like can’t sit still or can’t pay attention and that’s not the case. It can be... It can be hard to wrestle with, like, “oh wait, is it... Is it like... Do I... Am I a part of this group?” Like, “Do I fit this description?” Like, “Have I not been,” like. “Taken care of in the way that I needed to as a child?” Yeah, it can be... It can be hard to kind of come to terms with the fact that maybe you were overlooked as a kid and maybe things could have been different if someone had recognized that your needs were different than your peers. But— And I won’t try to make a bright side out of it because I know that it can be really hard for folks to come to terms with than say within adulthood, but I will say that there are a ton of resources out there for adults with ADHD. A lot of people grow out of it and then there’s a lot of us that didn’t! [Laughs] And here we are! So, I would just say like, yeah, you could have it and if you do, or are considering pursuing a diagnosis, like, talk to somebody, talk to a therapist, talk to somebody that you, like, know and love and who knows you. This is not me advocating for any kind of self-diagnosis, but, like, it’s definitely— Like ADHD looks a lot different than many of us think it does. And yeah— And I would just say that there’s a lot of people who you would never guess really struggle with learning or really struggle with just showing up every day. And so, I think that— I know that compassion and just, like, really acknowledging that everyone is dealing with things that we can’t see super obviously all the time. I know that’s been a really big message of, like, the past year with, like, the pandemic and everything, but... But I think that it’s so important that we don’t, like, forget that as we move into... As we move into potentially going back to whatever or [what] “normal” means because for some of us, I mean, like I— For me, sometimes it’s just, like, it’s a really... It’s a big hurdle to be able to say, like, “Okay, like, I’m gonna get out of bed. I need to get dressed today” because it’s— Like, I— It’s exhausting to be able— Like, it’s exhausting to try to “go” and function the way that everybody else does all the time. So, yeah, I would... I would just, like, say we’re, like, different than you might think or whatever stereotypes you might have. And that there’s, like— Everybody’s got something going on, and just, like, have as much patience and compassion for that as you can.
SARAH: Ali, what you were touching on about— Kind of an “under diagnosis” of girls with ADHD, specifically, I know that, like, I do want to be, like, an elementary school teacher in the future and we do talk about that but it’s not— I don’t think we talk about it enough, but--
ALI: Mmhm
SARAH: —I know that— Especially with, like, first grade... First and second, it’s... First and second grade is, like, “Oh, you really need to look out for, like, ‘x, y, and z’” spe[cifically]— Particular for ADHD or, like, dyslexia, or any other kind of, like, learning difficulties that the kids have, but it is strange because the way they teach it is very odd and the fact that it’s, like, “Oh, well, boys,” [Laughs] “Boys,” like “show it in this way and girls show it in this way” and it’s, like, [Through laughs] “Ah, yes. Um, no.” [Laughs] You know? --
ALI: Yeah!
SARAH: — And I feel like it’s such a big generalization, like, obviously, every kid will show their learning differently. And it’s just— I think it’s very frustrating that there hasn’t been... There’s not a lot of conversation about it, but then there’s also, like, not a lot of change in the way we talk about still. Like, I think that the phrase, like, “Boys will be boys” is still kind of around especially in conversations like that because you’ll have parents come in being like, “Well, he’s just a boy” [Laughs].
ALI: Yeah, yeah
SARAH: Or, like, "Well, she’s just, you know, really bored in class so she’s fidgeting, ‘cause she’s, you know, smarter than this” and it’s like, “Okay, well...” So--
ALI: Yeah--
SARAH: — I really appreciate you talking about that. Yeah.
ALI: Yeah, and I think it’s— I mean, like, I... I find that really fascinating especially— Like, I... I took a... I took a Women & Gender Studies class, last quarter, and we talked a lot about, like, the formation of gender and why, like, we are so convinced that gender is biological, and a lot of those conversations end up being, like, “Well, boys are, like— They act so much differently” and “They, like, move their bodies so much differently, and girls are this way!” and it’s actually like, um, I’m not gonna remember what research um, this was – or like, who did this research but, um, with boy babies, and infants, and like toddlers, they’re so much more likely to be able to be like – or to be like, tossed around by their parents, or like play in the backyard. Like, there’s a lot of encouragement of, um, like interaction with physical space and their physical bodies. And for girls, it’s much more like “You’re gonna wear a dress,” or “You’re gonna like, be kind of contained.” Like, there is a level of, like, restriction that is not totally conscious all the time. But like, girl children are, like, taught to interact with the space and the world around them with their bodies really differently than boys are. And so, that, then, when they – those kids grow up to be first and second graders, they’re not – the girls are much more...like, they are physically developed in a way that encourages smallness and stillness and quietness and politeness and paying attention in class, and not being disruptive, and not running around. Um, whereas boys have been, like – like, literally like their motor neurons have developed in a way, since they were young, young babies, to be more comfortable, um, engaging in a more, like, obviously physical way. Um, and like obviously, gender is really nuanced and that’s a whole other conversation that we can have, but, um, but yeah, for girls, it, like...I mean, like, ADHD doesn’t necessarily only look like fidgeting quietly, or like staring off into space. It can look like really intense social problems, because it’s hard to regulate your emotions at a young age in general, but like, I know that when I was struggling with my friends, like it was just like – absolutely shattering. And like I remember having conversations with my parents and my teachers being like, “Okay, like, it’s gonna be okay. Like, you are gonna be okay, things are gonna work out.” Um, and I just really couldn’t -- I couldn’t see that! I was like, “No,” like [laughter] “I am NEVER gonna make another friend, like, this is the END OF THE WORLD,” um, and I think that gets written off as like, “Oh, girls are just SO dramatic at that age, aren’t they?” Um...where it’s actually like – um, and I know that we, I haven’t talked about this quite yet, but, um, there’s a nondiagnosable phenomena that’s observed in folks with ADHD called “rejection sensitivity dysphoria,” or RSD. And it’s basically something that has been observed in manymanymanymany people with ADHD, where there’s like this really tense sensitivity to rejection. Where it’s like, “Oh my gosh, I’m really used to being like, tardy, or not finishing something correctly or, um, like, being too loud, and being just like, too much in some way,” and there’s just a really intense fear of being rejected. Um, so, yeah, it’s like a lot of us adapt to become people-pleasers, or just like, really really afraid of disappointing people because you don’t meet goals the same way as someone who’s neurotypical. Um, and I think that, like, emotional and social component is way more visible in kids a lot of times, because they haven’t developed into their adult selves that are better at masking some of those symptoms, for the sake of fitting in with their peers. Um, so it’s hard to like, it’s hard to emphasize this enough, but like, ADHD does not just extend to the classroom, like it’s -- it’s everywhere. Like it doesn’t -- I don’t stop having ADHD when I go on summer break. Like it, it goes everywhere with me. Um...so...yeah, like I – I don’t know if my teachers in elementary and middle school could have known, um, what was goin’ on, but, um, because I was getting good grades in their classes, I wasn’t considered a priority in that regard. Um, and so I wonder...I wonder if more information in different narratives had been available, like if I might have been able to get some more support earlier, um, and find different strategies to manage my time, manage my homework, um, or even manage my finances! Because that’s a BIG thing that adults with ADHD struggle with. Like, I am so bad at money. [Laughter] Really, really, really bad with money. [Laughter] And so, it’s like, ah! Like, maybe if I had had those tools younger, like at a younger age, um, then I would be different now. Um, but at the same time, I’m like, “Well, it’s happened how it’s happened!” and I, I mean, we can all sit around doing like “coulda shoulda woulda’s” all the time, but um...but yeah, it’s, it’s really complex. And there’s not a lot of information out there, so I’m hoping that there is more research that will come out, and that conversations in teaching classes will look different, um...but yeah.
ELENA: Okay! So, thank you Ali for being with us today, and for taking the time to have these really important conversations. Check out the Hoo’s At The Writing Center podcast page on the Writing Center blog, where we also post transcribed versions of our episodes so that you can read along with our banter.
KIMBERLY: Also check out the Writing Center blog for new posts, like “Tips for Beating Procrastination” by Sabrina Klindworth, or “LGBTQIA+ Representation in Animated Series That Made Me Smile as a Kid” by Bek Johnson. With that, be sure to stay safe, take care of one another, and this has been another episode of...
EVERYONE: Hoo...Hoo...Hoo’s At The Writing Center!
[Laughter]
KIMBERLY: Alright, we’ll talk to you guys in a couple weeks. Bye!
ELENA: Bye!
[OUTRO MUSIC PLAYS]
ELENA: Hello and welcome back to Hoo’s at the Writing Center! I’m Elena,
KARISSA: I’m Karissa,
SARAH: I’m Sarah,
KIMBERLY: And I’m Kimberly!
ELENA: We have a lot of really amazing things happening this episode, so bear with us! Before we begin our discussion with our very special guest, we want to announce that we have established our new podcast team.
KARISSA: Please give a warm and virtual applause for Eleanor Golden, Maddy Corteway, Sabrina Klindworth, and Ali Shaw!
KIMBERLY: While our hearts are ridden with sadness with the eventual departure of Karissa, Elena, and Sarah – yeah, big sad face, everyone – we could not be more excited about our new members and what’s to come next year (and hopefully the year after)! And more so, we know, or at least I do (as Kimberly, speaking out of turn, writing up this transcript), that this trio of graduates will be dragged back to the Writing Center at some point or another, so fear not!
SARAH: So, without further ado, let us introduce to you our team!
SABRINA: Hi, I’m Sabrina, and I use she/her pronouns. I’ve been working for the writing center for two years, and I’m currently a third-year at Seattle University. I’m double-majoring in Humanities for Teaching and English. My area of interest on the podcast is more of a background one, as I’ll be helping write episode transcripts, and create for our social media presence. I’m not a big podcast listener myself, however, I do love a good book, um, so I can always recommend something by Toni Morrison – I will be writing a blog post about the books I recommend that I’ve read by her – um, as well as anything by Sarah J. Maas, who is an incredible fantasy romance writer.
MADDY: Hi everyone, my name is Maddy and I use she/her pronouns, and I’m a second-year at SU, majoring in Psychology and Criminal Justice, and I’ve worked in the writing center for almost a year now. And my overall interest in the podcast is just kind of a general interest; I’m not quite sure, um, what that would look like yet, but I’m just excited to be a part of the team. And my favorite podcast – besides this one, of course – is, um, Revisionist History by Malcolm Gladwell. Uh, it’s just a good, like, podcast, I mean, it has to do more with like psychology and kind of, like, unpacking like, historical events, or like, interesting people...um, but, yeah, I’d recommend Revisionist History, and I’m looking forward to being a part of the podcast team!
ALI: Hey everybody, my name is Ali Shaw, I use she/they pronouns, I am a junior, graduating class of ‘22...um, and I am a Psychology and Sociology double major. Um, I’ve worked at the writing center for two years, now? I think? I think this is my second year? Um, and it is the best job ever, um, but outside of the writing center I am really interested in like, art and neuropsychology and true crime, and I really love to read, um, so yeah, whole bunch of different things, um, and right now, my favorite podcast I have been listening to obsessively is the TryPod from the Try Guys, um, it is really, really funny and silly, um, and it gives me a good break throughout the day, uh...to listen to while I walk, or while I’m, like, watering my plants, um...but yeah! I’m super excited to be joining the podcast team, and can’t wait to make more for you soon!
ELEANOR: My name’s Eleanor, I use she/her pronouns, and I’m a second-year creative writing major. This is my first year working at the writing center, so I’m really excited to get the chance to work on the podcast some as well. Something I’m interested in with the podcast is learning what goes into crafting and editing an episode. My favorite podcast is probably Song Exploder or Pod Save America. Thank you!
SARAH: Weren’t those just the loveliest voices you’ve ever heard? Give them some love on our social media because they deserve it!
KARISSA: Now, we move on to our episode with our very special guest, new member, colleague, friend, and just a bundle of joy, Ali Shaw! Yaaay! [claps, woots] Ali Shaw will be speaking with us today about ADHD and Neurodivergence and what the two means for them as both a student and a writer. Welcome Ali and thank you for joining us today!
ALI: Thanks for having me, I’m super excited!
KARISSA: Okay!
EVERYONE: [Laughter]
KARISSA: [referring to the transcript] It says ‘Eventual small talk’...but, as we talked about before, we’re, we’re struggling with that, so...
ALI: I know, I’m like, I don’t, yeah, we don’t know how to socialize anymore, but... [laughter] We’re doin’ our best, we’re out here.
KARISSA: Exactly. Okay, so yeah, just starting with the first question, for those who may not know, what is ADHD, and then what is “neurodivergence”?
ALI: Yeah, yeah. So, um...ADHD stands for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, um, and you probably have heard that before, when talked about like kids; it’s a pretty common diagnosis for young folks. And then neurodivergence can be defined in a whole bunch of different ways, but it’s basically, uh, like the deviation from neurotypicality. So, um, a neurotypical brain is a brain that functions like, in a quote unquote kind of “normal” way, even though, uh, that doesn’t necessarily technically exist, ‘cause we’re all really different, but, um...neurodivergence is like, uh, social, or behavioral, or intellectual differences, um, that set you apart from the majority of the population.
SARAH: Wonderful, thank you so much for the clarification; I know I always appreciate just kind of like, definitions of things I may or may not know about, just so we can be on the same page, um...
ALI: Sure!
SARAH: But, how common is it for people to be diagnosed with ADHD or to be neurodivergent?
ALI: Mmm...well, so I don’t have an exact stat for you, but, um, but...as far as ADHD and neurodivergence goes, I mean, neurodivergence is again, kind of like I said, the whole idea of “normal” that we have, um...is very much like, socially-constructed, um, and from like a psychology or a behavioral and neurological standpoint, that is, like...divergence is more common than kind of, normalcy. Um, we all have a lot of quirks about ourselves that may or may not be diagnosable, or, like, disruptive, but, um...yeah. So, I would say it’s much more common than you would think, um...yeah.
ELENA: Okay, so – thank you for that, and we wanted to ask, uh, as much as you’re comfortable talking about, what has ADHD or being neurodivergent meant for you as a student, um, and also as a writer? And, how are the two, uh, student and writer, in conversation with each other in your life, and how do you navigate them?
ALI: Yeah, yeah! So, um, my ADHD diagnosis is fairly recent, um, I was diagnosed officially in December of this past year, in 2020, um, and I started – I mean, but, like the diagnosis has come after struggling with ADHD symptoms my entire life and just not necessarily recognizing them as ADHD symptoms. Um, I initially started looking into a diagnosis and looking more into what ADHD looks like, um, especially in folks who were raised and socialized as women. Um, yeah, so I started looking into that after having a conversation with a professor, who I love, and we were, we were actually on a walk and I was, she was talking about her experience with ADHD and I just kept saying like “Haha that’s so relatable, that’s so funny, like wow that sounds a lot like me.” And I think after the, I think after the third or fourth time, she uh, she finally was like “So have you like ever thought about getting tested?” Um, and I really hadn’t, it was something that was really surprising to hear. Um, because I always associated ADHD with like really hyperactive little boys that were in my classes in elementary school or who I nannied. Um, I didn’t think that ADHD was anything other than like a lot of like, extra energy, like just really intense hyperactivity, um, and it turns out it’s like, it’s just infinitely more than that. Um, and I’ve done a lot of research, I’ve fallen down many a rabbit hole trying to figure out what all this means. Um, but the, the symptoms that I notice the most in myself, um, are the, the attention deficit side of things. So there’s, there is three primary types of, um, ADHD: there is the primarily hyperactive, primarily inattentive, and then combined. So I’m definitely on the primarily inattentive side of things, um which means that I really struggle with sustaining focus. Um, and that can look, that can look a bunch of different ways. It can look like, I really have a hard time like getting things done on time because I will, either like, well so, it’s kinda, the idea of like primarily inattentive, um is kind of a misnomer because it’s actually like I have a hard time allocating focus in appropriate manner. Like I’ll either hyperfocus or over-focus on something that should not be prioritized and that doesn’t really need a lot of attention. Like, say, so I own a lot of houseplants and sometimes I, my brain is like “You know what sounds wayyy more fun than sitting down and taking notes in your zoom class, uh, watering all of your plants, and then falling down a research rabbit hole of finding out what kinds of plants there are that you don’t have or what species of plant you have sitting in front of you.” And I’ll, I’ll direct my focus in a really extreme way, um, or I’ll have no focus at all. And so sometimes that can look like, I am constantly late, I have a very hard time showing up on time to things, or I’m really really early because I like over-prepare. Um, I also like really lose track of things super easily so. Um, like when I was in high school it would drive my mom nuts, because every single morning before I left for school I would be like “Where are my car keys? I can not find them anyway, they are not in the house, I don’t have my car keys” and it would be extremely dramatic. Um, and she was like “Wha? What do you mean? Like, where are they?” And that’s, that’s a part of, um, something, like, called object permanence which is something that ADHD, folks with ADHD have a really hard time with. Like I’ll put something down somewhere and then walk away from it and my brain will not have allocated enough attention to that item when I set it down to remember where I put it. And so it just disappears in my brain, and I’ll be like “Oh, I’ve never seen car keys before, what do you mean?” but then I panic when I need them because I have literally no idea where I put them down. So it can look a whole bunch of different ways, I like, I started um, when I was starting the diagnosis progress, um it’s, it’s fairly complex because they really want to make sure they’re not misdiagnosing folks, um, especially since medication for ADHD are, they are stimulants, um, and so those are pretty heavily regulated by the FDA. So when I was going through the diagnosis process, um, I was talking extensively with my partner because she spends the most amount of time with me. Um, and she would, she would notice like, we were, we were living together during the beginning of the pandemic, and she would be like “Hey can you please, like can you take out the trash today?” um, in the morning, and then I like, by the end of the afternoon she would be like “Wha? Can you take out the trash?” and I would be like “OH MY GOD” like I, It's like I had never even heard those words before like, l would just completely forget by getting super distracted by something else. So, it’s just like, um, there’s smaller things, sometimes and then there’s other times where it’s like really big things where I get... I get really overwhelmed and panicked when I know that there’s something big and important that I need to allocate a lot of attention to, um, and it becomes this like really big monster in my brain that I can’t even... I can’t even start it because perfectionism and ADHD go really hand-in-hand. Um, so I’m so afraid of failing that I don’t want to start. Um, and that’s definitely become more obvious in college because in high school, I think that I’ve talked to many folks who have had this experience like I.. I was lucky enough to do well in school and feel really comfortable in school. Um, so I didn’t really have to put that much effort in because I liked my teachers and they knew me and we got along really well. Um, and so it was fine if I missed an assignment here and there or if I got things in late, but now, now as far as being in college, it’s... It’s definitely become more challenging. So, I know that was a lot of information [Laughs] And there.. And I could talk for—There's... There’s so much that I like... There's so much as far as ADHD goes, like there’s people who devote their entire YouTube and TikTok channels to this stuff, and honestly, that’s been... That’s been a really great resource for me, um, not as a tool for diagnosis because I think that should be... That... That should be like stated in this episode. It’s like I’m not—I can only speak to my experience and if things sound familiar like that’s like a genuine, um, phenomena called like, called The Med-Student Effect, where like if you’re in classes then you’re learning about these things, suddenly it feels like oh wait that sounds like me, that sounds like someone I know. You start relating it to people in your spheres. Um, so yea I’m not, definitely not providing this as a tool for diagnosis, but um, but yea it’s part of my experience.
SARAH: And thank you so much for sharing that experience. Um, I know that we kinda asked about how, um ADHD, what that looks like and what that means to you as a student, but we were also wondering kinda how that looks like as a, as a writer specifically and maybe how are the two, like being a student and being a writer, kinda in conversation with one another. Cause I’m hearing a lot of like um, being overwhelmed and like perfectionism, or just like being very like easily distracted and obviously all those things come into play, um with both being a writer and being a student.
ALI: Yea, yea, yea um I think that, um, yea. So something about, um, my experience with, uh, attention challenges are that, hyperfocus which is kinda the term used for like really, just totally being in the zone with something, um. That happens when something is challenging, it’s really creative, it’s new or it’s like there’s really intense pressure sometimes, like it’s, it can - I will like dive into something really really intensely, and like won’t even, like when I’m in a state of really intense hyperfocus like six to seven hours could go by and I wouldn’t even realize it, time totally melts away. I don’t like, have to eat or like go to the bathroom, like I’m just so absorbed in this task, and I don’t do a great job of regulating attention towards other things like getting up and moving my body, or like taking care of myself. Um and so that happens a lot when I’m writing, um. But on the other hand when there’s assignments that I’m not so interested or not so creative, um, those can be really hard because, it uh - I’ve tried to describe it, um as it’s, it’s just like staring at a brick wall and knowing that you’re supposed to do something with it and knowing that the task is really tall and really overwhelming, even though like logically it is more manageable than sometimes my brain feels like it is. And so I just, I honestly have a really hard time just starting and so often times that looks like, saving an assignment until the night before it’s due, um not because I didn’t have time to do other things but because the only way to make the task interesting is by making it associated with panic, and being like oh my gosh well now I have to get this done by midnight and it’s 9:30 so here we go, it’s a race against the clock and that’s a way to trick myself into being interested in it, which makes it more do-able. Um, but that also goes hand-in-hand with creating a lot of anxiety, and something that’s really common with ADHD is anxiety and depression, uh because it can be really challenging to feel like—and, and yeah in my experience like it’s like I can only do things when I’m really, like when I’m so stressed out that I feel like I have to.
Um, so that’s really hard, and another part of ADHD, kind of like what I was talking about with the, um, like with like forgetting to do tasks or being late, it’s like the—the issues are with executive functioning. So, it’s really hard to like manage time and emotionally process correctly, and I have a really hard time with working memory, which is that like remembering to do things, um, so that also leads to just a lot of frustration because even though I know I’m not a bad writer and I know that I love to write, I feel like I can’t sometimes, especially since like—so I’m a psychology and sociology double major and so that’s a lot of work and that’s a lot of writing, and so when there’s things that I’m not so interested in that I have to write about, I’m just like “ugh!” Like, I know I’m not stupid, but I feel stupid because I can’t start this. Um, and I think that one of the biggest things that’s helped with that is being able to just like reach out to other people, and even to say like—my best friend lives with me and even just to say like “hey, can you just like sit in the same room with me while I try to finish this?” because I need someone to be in the room with me to just like have another body present to say like “Look, you can do this. It’s manageable. It’s not as big as the abstract monster in your head makes it seem.” And also talking to colleagues, talking to other students, being at the writing center has totally helped because it’s also—it's really given me insight into the fact that a) what I’ve experienced my whole life and thought was just like me not being like motivated or dedicated enough is not unique, like a lot of people have that narrative in their minds about themselves as writers and as students, and that’s not always the case. There’s a lot of factors that making writing challenging, um, and make school challenging, so I would say reaching out to community has helped me navigate that. But it is—yeah, it can be hard.
KIMBERLY: Thank you, Ali, for sharing that with us, and we know that you’ve already touched on a little bit about the kinds of challenges you’ve faced, but we also want to give you the opportunity to talk about the victories and highlight the good moments. So, of course, however you feel comfortable with that kind of question, but we’d love to also bring light into this conversation.
ALI: Yeah, for sure, that’s a cute question. Um, yeah so when I was first talking to my mom about all of this—she’s, I mean I love her, she’s a peach, but she was like—I was talking about like “oh, god” just trying to piece things together and asking her lots of questions about like “well, what did you notice?” and “how was I as a kid?” and all of these questions, and something that kept coming up consistently was—she was like “yeah, this is a really hard thing that you’re kind of like learning more about, but these are also kind of like your superpowers. Like, you do like totally zone in on things and you can be really intensely focused and make amazing things because of that.” And a part of ADHD that I don’t know if I’ve totally touched on is—additionally with, kind of hand in hand with these like attention issues and more like stereotypical symptoms like having a lot of energy, needing to fidget, not being able to focus—there's also a really complex interaction with emotions and the ability to emotionally regulate. Um, and like ever since I was little my mom has always said like, “you feel things really big.” Like, my feelings are happening to me and to everyone around me, like it is, like, we are in it. Um, and so my mom’s been really kind as far as being like “yeah, like, you do feel things so intensely and that’s such a, like, that’s such an incredible thing because you, like, that means you love really intensely, and you’re really excited really intensely.” And that can mean that I get really, like, angry and self-critical sometimes, but it also, I think makes me a really animated and excited person. So, yeah-- and I also feel like ADHD—before I had a name for it, um, it made me really like empathic to other people and I feel like I have a certain level of compassion because, though I have always really enjoyed school, I also understand what it’s like to look at something and just feel completely defeated by it. And so, especially in my job as a writing consultant, I love working with other students and I also think that I have the ability to, like, say to someone like “I get it. I understand what it’s like to just feel completely overwhelmed and like there’s nowhere to go with something,” and that’s a really tough thing to sit with, especially when there’s so many expectations of, like, how we’re supposed to behave and what we’re supposed to do, and all the things we’re supposed to accomplish in these like idealized productivity goals. It’s just not attainable for a lot of us, and so, it’s always my intention to go into a consolation and be able to, like, really show up as a human and not someone who’s there to pass any judgement.
And I also, like, I mean, I can tell when I’m having an intense ADHD day when I’ll be talking to someone and my ideas are just like pinging all around and it’s like “whoa, what that was totally a non sequitur, like, we went from talking about our days to you talking about like who knows what, like, some random fact.” Of course, now that I'm trying to talk to you about it, I’m like “what random facts? I don’t know any.” [Laughs]. But I have all these ideas, and I have all these thoughts and I think that helps me think really creatively, which can be overwhelming sometimes when I need to just like really focus on the task at hand, but yeah, it also helps me do what I love to do, which like create and interact with people. So yeah, it’s definitely not all bad, um, and I know that sometimes labels and like finding—or like being diagnosed with something or what have you can feel really limiting to some folks and I definitely won’t say that getting a diagnosis is the key for everyone, but it’s really helped me find community and other people who understand, because when I was younger, especially like—I know I’ve talked a lot about the attentive piece, but the hyper activity is definitely part of my experience, and like I was in my first-grade classrooms and would pick apart pink pearl erasers with, like, my hands and they would turn into just like little crumbs while I was like playing with them. And that was like—my teacher was like “hey, those are classroom materials. You’re ruining them. What’s up kid?” and of course, like, they didn’t know, and ADHD goes really underdiagnosed in girls because we’re not as rowdy all the time as younger boys are because we’re socialized to be really quiet and small, so it can be hard to identify symptoms of ADHD in young girls.
Anyway, being able in my now 20s to be able to look back at that kid and be like “oh! You were like totally, like, nothing was wrong with you, your brain just works different and that’s okay, and that’s gonna end up being a really cool thing later,” has given me a lot of space to process and kind of like take care of that child that’s still like—that version of me still exists within the person that I am today, and so it’s been really helpful to be able to process out these things as a more emotionally nuanced and literate person [laughs] than my six year old self was, obviously. So, yeah.
SARAH: Alrighty, we just have one more question for you today. We were just wondering what is something you would like to tell the audience, or in other words, what would you like our listeners to take away most form this episode, or just in general?
ALI: Hmm, um, I would say that like—I don’t know; ADHD and neurodivergence, and I know like there’s so much more to neurodivergence that I could talk about, and a lot of those experiences are not mine, so I will leave that sharing to folks who do fit other categories than I do, but I would just say that like ADHD looks really different than the description that we’ve all been sold for a long time because I think that it’s been depicted as a really specific type of person that has ADHD like I said, like, the young kid who’s bouncing off the walls or throwing stuff in the classroom and just like can’t sit still or can’t pay attention and that’s not the case. It can be... It can be hard to wrestle with, like, “oh wait, is it... Is it like... Do I... Am I a part of this group?” Like, “Do I fit this description?” Like, “Have I not been,” like. “Taken care of in the way that I needed to as a child?” Yeah, it can be... It can be hard to kind of come to terms with the fact that maybe you were overlooked as a kid and maybe things could have been different if someone had recognized that your needs were different than your peers. But— And I won’t try to make a bright side out of it because I know that it can be really hard for folks to come to terms with than say within adulthood, but I will say that there are a ton of resources out there for adults with ADHD. A lot of people grow out of it and then there’s a lot of us that didn’t! [Laughs] And here we are! So, I would just say like, yeah, you could have it and if you do, or are considering pursuing a diagnosis, like, talk to somebody, talk to a therapist, talk to somebody that you, like, know and love and who knows you. This is not me advocating for any kind of self-diagnosis, but, like, it’s definitely— Like ADHD looks a lot different than many of us think it does. And yeah— And I would just say that there’s a lot of people who you would never guess really struggle with learning or really struggle with just showing up every day. And so, I think that— I know that compassion and just, like, really acknowledging that everyone is dealing with things that we can’t see super obviously all the time. I know that’s been a really big message of, like, the past year with, like, the pandemic and everything, but... But I think that it’s so important that we don’t, like, forget that as we move into... As we move into potentially going back to whatever or [what] “normal” means because for some of us, I mean, like I— For me, sometimes it’s just, like, it’s a really... It’s a big hurdle to be able to say, like, “Okay, like, I’m gonna get out of bed. I need to get dressed today” because it’s— Like, I— It’s exhausting to be able— Like, it’s exhausting to try to “go” and function the way that everybody else does all the time. So, yeah, I would... I would just, like, say we’re, like, different than you might think or whatever stereotypes you might have. And that there’s, like— Everybody’s got something going on, and just, like, have as much patience and compassion for that as you can.
SARAH: Ali, what you were touching on about— Kind of an “under diagnosis” of girls with ADHD, specifically, I know that, like, I do want to be, like, an elementary school teacher in the future and we do talk about that but it’s not— I don’t think we talk about it enough, but--
ALI: Mmhm
SARAH: —I know that— Especially with, like, first grade... First and second, it’s... First and second grade is, like, “Oh, you really need to look out for, like, ‘x, y, and z’” spe[cifically]— Particular for ADHD or, like, dyslexia, or any other kind of, like, learning difficulties that the kids have, but it is strange because the way they teach it is very odd and the fact that it’s, like, “Oh, well, boys,” [Laughs] “Boys,” like “show it in this way and girls show it in this way” and it’s, like, [Through laughs] “Ah, yes. Um, no.” [Laughs] You know? --
ALI: Yeah!
SARAH: — And I feel like it’s such a big generalization, like, obviously, every kid will show their learning differently. And it’s just— I think it’s very frustrating that there hasn’t been... There’s not a lot of conversation about it, but then there’s also, like, not a lot of change in the way we talk about still. Like, I think that the phrase, like, “Boys will be boys” is still kind of around especially in conversations like that because you’ll have parents come in being like, “Well, he’s just a boy” [Laughs].
ALI: Yeah, yeah
SARAH: Or, like, "Well, she’s just, you know, really bored in class so she’s fidgeting, ‘cause she’s, you know, smarter than this” and it’s like, “Okay, well...” So--
ALI: Yeah--
SARAH: — I really appreciate you talking about that. Yeah.
ALI: Yeah, and I think it’s— I mean, like, I... I find that really fascinating especially— Like, I... I took a... I took a Women & Gender Studies class, last quarter, and we talked a lot about, like, the formation of gender and why, like, we are so convinced that gender is biological, and a lot of those conversations end up being, like, “Well, boys are, like— They act so much differently” and “They, like, move their bodies so much differently, and girls are this way!” and it’s actually like, um, I’m not gonna remember what research um, this was – or like, who did this research but, um, with boy babies, and infants, and like toddlers, they’re so much more likely to be able to be like – or to be like, tossed around by their parents, or like play in the backyard. Like, there’s a lot of encouragement of, um, like interaction with physical space and their physical bodies. And for girls, it’s much more like “You’re gonna wear a dress,” or “You’re gonna like, be kind of contained.” Like, there is a level of, like, restriction that is not totally conscious all the time. But like, girl children are, like, taught to interact with the space and the world around them with their bodies really differently than boys are. And so, that, then, when they – those kids grow up to be first and second graders, they’re not – the girls are much more...like, they are physically developed in a way that encourages smallness and stillness and quietness and politeness and paying attention in class, and not being disruptive, and not running around. Um, whereas boys have been, like – like, literally like their motor neurons have developed in a way, since they were young, young babies, to be more comfortable, um, engaging in a more, like, obviously physical way. Um, and like obviously, gender is really nuanced and that’s a whole other conversation that we can have, but, um, but yeah, for girls, it, like...I mean, like, ADHD doesn’t necessarily only look like fidgeting quietly, or like staring off into space. It can look like really intense social problems, because it’s hard to regulate your emotions at a young age in general, but like, I know that when I was struggling with my friends, like it was just like – absolutely shattering. And like I remember having conversations with my parents and my teachers being like, “Okay, like, it’s gonna be okay. Like, you are gonna be okay, things are gonna work out.” Um, and I just really couldn’t -- I couldn’t see that! I was like, “No,” like [laughter] “I am NEVER gonna make another friend, like, this is the END OF THE WORLD,” um, and I think that gets written off as like, “Oh, girls are just SO dramatic at that age, aren’t they?” Um...where it’s actually like – um, and I know that we, I haven’t talked about this quite yet, but, um, there’s a nondiagnosable phenomena that’s observed in folks with ADHD called “rejection sensitivity dysphoria,” or RSD. And it’s basically something that has been observed in manymanymanymany people with ADHD, where there’s like this really tense sensitivity to rejection. Where it’s like, “Oh my gosh, I’m really used to being like, tardy, or not finishing something correctly or, um, like, being too loud, and being just like, too much in some way,” and there’s just a really intense fear of being rejected. Um, so, yeah, it’s like a lot of us adapt to become people-pleasers, or just like, really really afraid of disappointing people because you don’t meet goals the same way as someone who’s neurotypical. Um, and I think that, like, emotional and social component is way more visible in kids a lot of times, because they haven’t developed into their adult selves that are better at masking some of those symptoms, for the sake of fitting in with their peers. Um, so it’s hard to like, it’s hard to emphasize this enough, but like, ADHD does not just extend to the classroom, like it’s -- it’s everywhere. Like it doesn’t -- I don’t stop having ADHD when I go on summer break. Like it, it goes everywhere with me. Um...so...yeah, like I – I don’t know if my teachers in elementary and middle school could have known, um, what was goin’ on, but, um, because I was getting good grades in their classes, I wasn’t considered a priority in that regard. Um, and so I wonder...I wonder if more information in different narratives had been available, like if I might have been able to get some more support earlier, um, and find different strategies to manage my time, manage my homework, um, or even manage my finances! Because that’s a BIG thing that adults with ADHD struggle with. Like, I am so bad at money. [Laughter] Really, really, really bad with money. [Laughter] And so, it’s like, ah! Like, maybe if I had had those tools younger, like at a younger age, um, then I would be different now. Um, but at the same time, I’m like, “Well, it’s happened how it’s happened!” and I, I mean, we can all sit around doing like “coulda shoulda woulda’s” all the time, but um...but yeah, it’s, it’s really complex. And there’s not a lot of information out there, so I’m hoping that there is more research that will come out, and that conversations in teaching classes will look different, um...but yeah.
ELENA: Okay! So, thank you Ali for being with us today, and for taking the time to have these really important conversations. Check out the Hoo’s At The Writing Center podcast page on the Writing Center blog, where we also post transcribed versions of our episodes so that you can read along with our banter.
KIMBERLY: Also check out the Writing Center blog for new posts, like “Tips for Beating Procrastination” by Sabrina Klindworth, or “LGBTQIA+ Representation in Animated Series That Made Me Smile as a Kid” by Bek Johnson. With that, be sure to stay safe, take care of one another, and this has been another episode of...
EVERYONE: Hoo...Hoo...Hoo’s At The Writing Center!
[Laughter]
KIMBERLY: Alright, we’ll talk to you guys in a couple weeks. Bye!
ELENA: Bye!
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